What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

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What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby Shonin » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:03 pm

I love this guy.
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby PeterB » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:20 pm

Brilliant.
And of course where he has ended up is the same position as Ajahn Buddhadasa or Lung Por Chah.
That questions of after death states or Rebirth or " eternal life" only come about when we lose sight of the fact that in reality there is only now. That questions about Rebirth or Non Rebirth are subsumed into the question what is time ?...And time arises dependently with all dhammas.
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:34 pm

PeterB wrote:Brilliant.
And of course where he has ended up is the same position as Ajahn Buddhadasa or Lung Por Chah.
That questions of after death states or Rebirth or " eternal life" only come about when we lose sight of the fact that in reality there is only now. That questions about Rebirth or Non Rebirth are subsumed into the question what is time ?...And time arises dependently with all dhammas.


How do you know and can you show that "time arises dependently with all dhammas"? :juggling:

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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby PeterB » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:37 pm

Are you suggesting that time is unconditioned ?
One of the synonyms of the unconditioned is "akaliko" the timeless. That which is not subject to time.
Time is not the ground of experience. Time arises with all dhammas.
There is a parallel with Big Bang Theory...the question what happened before the Big Bang is redundant. There was no " before" .
Time arose according to Big Bang Theory with everything else.
In the same way causality includes the time in which it happens. There is no before. There is only now.
Dependant Origination is not actually sequential. We simply treat it as if it were to facilitate discussion.
Last edited by PeterB on Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:49 pm

PeterB wrote:Are you suggesting that time is unconditioned ?


No, Peter, I did not.
But this question you asked is a separate issue from the one I had asked you earlier! [i.e. How do you know and can you show that "time arises dependently with all dhammas"?]
All I know about time is that it is a concept that is based on rotation of the Earth around the Sun.

:reading: Dhamma_spoon
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby PeterB » Sat Aug 14, 2010 5:53 pm

There is one possible answer to your question in my reply Dhamma Spoon.
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:13 pm

PeterB wrote:There is one possible answer to your question in my reply Dhamma Spoon.


So, please kindly advise ... what is that answer, Peter?
:juggling: :thinking: :jawdrop:
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby PeterB » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:19 pm

If time is not unconditioned, it is conditioned. It therefore arises with all conditioned phenomena. Dependently.
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby Shonin » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:31 pm

This is an experience - experiencing 'now' as liberation from linear time - an experience in the here and now, not something that is dependent on theory and conjecture. It's something that is often experienced in meditation. We can also experience the conditioned nature of time by taking LSD - the experiences do not occur within normal linear time, but in radically distorted time which may include dramatic glimpses of timelessness.Similarly our sense of time is slowed down in moments of emergency, and speeds up as we get older. The sense of time is mentally conditioned.
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby 5heaps » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:51 pm

Shonin wrote:I love this guy.

why?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby Sobeh » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:37 pm

Tīn'imāni bhikkhave sankhatassa sankhatalakkhanāni. Katamāni tīni. Uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, thitassa aññathattam paññāyati. Imāni kho bhikkhave tīni sankhatassa sankhatalakkhanānī ti.
-Sankhata Sutta (AN 3.47)

"There are, monks, these three determined-characteristics of what is determined. Which are the three? Arising (appearance) is manifest; disappearance is manifest; change while standing is manifest. These, monks, are the three determined-characteristics of what is determined."

Tayo'me bhikkhave addhā. Katame tayo. Atīto addhā, anāgato addhā, paccuppanno addhā. Ime kho bhikkhave tayo addhā ti.
-Itivuttaka, § 63

"There are, monks, these three periods. Which are the three? The past period, the future period, the present period. These, monks, are the three periods."


---
The Dhamma renders these statements on experiential, or epistemological, time; ontological statements of time are unnecessary speculation.
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:44 pm

Greetings,

PeterB wrote:If time is not unconditioned, it is conditioned. It therefore arises with all conditioned phenomena. Dependently.

Or.... "time" is just a concept, and it only arises (in its capacity as a concept) when somebody conceives of it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby 5heaps » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:Or.... "time" is just a concept, and it only arises (in its capacity as a concept) when somebody conceives of it.

im interested to hear your position Retro.. do you accept changing and unchanging things [or just changing things]? is the concept of time changing or unchanging? if changing, are all concepts changing? if its unchanging, how can we have a constantly fluctuating sense of time?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby lojong1 » Sun Aug 15, 2010 1:49 am

Another small reason to love this guy: http://www.gratefulness.org/qbox/item.cfm?qbox_id=170

J.P.-- "My present spiritual advisors perceive Christianity and Buddhism as basically incompatible, principally because of the Buddhist idea of the Void. As a Christian with Buddhist training, I’ve never considered this a problem. Could you elaborate briefly on the compatibility or incompatibility of Christian ideas of the Divine (personal God) and the Buddhist concept of the Void?"

David Steindl-Rast-- "Dear J.P., the God space is so vast that different space missions may bring back seemingly contradictory reports. When we speak of God, we should expect such paradoxes as fullness and emptiness. In fact, since all the opposites arise from God and are one in God, we should be suspicious of any God talk that is not paradoxical.
From early on, Christian theology has been aware that whatever we say about God, no matter how true, falls infinitely short of the full truth. (This strand of theology is called Negative or Apophatic Theology.) The emptiness of which Buddhists speak is, paradoxically, also the source of all fullness.
Don’t try to correct your spiritual advisors. Just add in your own mind what is missing. In controversies, as has been observed, most people are correct in what they affirm, but wrong in what they deny.
-- Your Brother David"
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby Shonin » Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:39 am

He seems to be an interesting character. And has Zen training in his background.

His bio:
http://www.gratefulness.org/brotherdavid/bio.htm

I like him because he is insightful, because he speaks from experience over theory. His view of time is existential not ontological. And he is humble and good-humoured. There is a profound beauty to what he is talking about.
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 15, 2010 8:31 am

He is good people. Thomas merton for the present generation.
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:03 am

Shonin wrote:I love this guy.


me too thank you :)
There is no comfort without pain; thus
we define salvation through suffering.
-- Cato
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:59 am

lojong1 wrote:Another small reason to love this guy: http://www.gratefulness.org/qbox/item.cfm?qbox_id=170

David Steindl-Rast-- "Dear J.P., the God space is so vast that different space missions may bring back seemingly contradictory reports. When we speak of God, we should expect such paradoxes as fullness and emptiness. In fact, since all the opposites arise from God and are one in God, we should be suspicious of any God talk that is not paradoxical.
From early on, Christian theology has been aware that whatever we say about God, no matter how true, falls infinitely short of the full truth. (This strand of theology is called Negative or Apophatic Theology.) The emptiness of which Buddhists speak is, paradoxically, also the source of all fullness.
Don’t try to correct your spiritual advisors. Just add in your own mind what is missing. In controversies, as has been observed, most people are correct in what they affirm, but wrong in what they deny.
-- Your Brother David"


Wow :bow:
There is no comfort without pain; thus
we define salvation through suffering.
-- Cato
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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:13 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

PeterB wrote:If time is not unconditioned, it is conditioned. It therefore arises with all conditioned phenomena. Dependently.

Or.... "time" is just a concept, and it only arises (in its capacity as a concept) when somebody conceives of it.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Thanks, Retro. I also understand 'time as a concept' the same way you do.

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Re: What's going to happen to YOU when you die?

Postby Vepacitta » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:24 pm

I'm going to answer the thread question directly:

What's going to happen to me when I die?

"I have no idea."

(I think speculation gets a person off the track. Its fun and I love fun but ... it's been occurring me lately that 'creating scenarios' (my father's favourite admonition 'stop creating scenarios') is just another form of grasping at self - essence - and clouds one's efforts to see things as they are)

Just my two groats on the issue. Metta and all that!

It's raining today on Mt. Meru, I sit on my front porch looking at the deer park across the way, sip my sweat tea and jabber away on my computer ... I have now reached ... nerdvana,

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