Signature

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Signature

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:28 pm

The following is a signature of one of our fellow members:

To call something a foundation of the Buddhist Teachings is only correct if firstly, it is a principle which aims at the extinction of Dukkha and, secondly, it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others. These are the important constituents of a foundation.

Aj. Buddhadasa
It would seem that having to initially believe in what some other person said is unavoidable.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Signature

Postby Annapurna » Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:51 pm

Unless you come upon a truth by yourself... :ugeek:
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Re: Signature

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:09 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The following is a signature of one of our fellow members:

To call something a foundation of the Buddhist Teachings is only correct if firstly, it is a principle which aims at the extinction of Dukkha and, secondly, it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others. These are the important constituents of a foundation.

Aj. Buddhadasa
It would seem that having to initially believe in what some other person said is unavoidable.


I think the point he's making is the foundation is not reliant on you believing, you can verify it and come to a deeper understanding yourself. Of course believing that it is worthwhile looking into in the first place is necessary.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Signature

Postby Fede » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:11 pm

Annapurna wrote:Unless you come upon a truth by yourself...


Name one......
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Signature

Postby Ben » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:30 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The following is a signature of one of our fellow members:

To call something a foundation of the Buddhist Teachings is only correct if firstly, it is a principle which aims at the extinction of Dukkha and, secondly, it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others. These are the important constituents of a foundation.

Aj. Buddhadasa
It would seem that having to initially believe in what some other person said is unavoidable.


I think the point he's making is the foundation is not reliant on you believing, you can verify it and come to a deeper understanding yourself. Of course believing that it is worthwhile looking into in the first place is necessary.


Yes. But if one continues to hold the view that the teaching is only valid if it is to our own liking or is in concord with our own rationalization or the way we think about ourselves and the world, then it would suggest to me that the practice of that individual has stalled. Belief (or confidence) is certainly there at the beginning and continues to be there for sometime but decreases as naana develops. One's own logic, however well-thought out and convincing, is a very poor substitute for real wisdom.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
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Re: Signature

Postby Hoo » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:47 pm

Fede wrote:
Annapurna wrote:Unless you come upon a truth by yourself...


Name one......


These are just my opinion or experiences. Feel free to ignore them :)

"The label is not the thing." Most philosophy and phychology students learn that truth, eventually. If they are practitioners, they may learn it very quickly. They may have been taught it in the beginning of their studies, but the truth of it is a thing to be experienced, IMHO.

"Everything changes." A piece of common knowledge for thousands of years, another truth that is really learned when it's experienced, IMO.

Then there is the phenomema of the "Silent Buddha." To me in my fledgling Buddhism, this looks like a pretty good scenario for arriving at a truth by yourself.

No argument or debate is invited. Sharing of understandings is always welcome :) I'd be interested if the Silent Buddha concept strikes others as a good example.

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Re: Signature

Postby Fede » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:49 pm

Ben wrote:Yes. But if one continues to hold the view that the teaching is only valid if it is to our own liking or is in concord with our own rationalization or the way we think about ourselves and the world, then it would suggest to me that the practice of that individual has stalled. Belief (or confidence) is certainly there at the beginning and continues to be there for sometime but decreases as naana develops. One's own logic, however well-thought out and convincing, is a very poor substitute for real wisdom.
kind regards

Ben


Oh dear.
Time and again, I have come across various teachings, suttas, words of wisdom and passages that absolutely stuck in my craw. My wall of resistance shot up, like the safety barrier between client and bank cashier, when the security is compromised...
Whoosh! up it would go.
Oh dear me, no. I don't like that at all.
Unfortunately for me, I could not resist for long. However uncomfortable or difficult to digest, however uneasily it laid upon my mind, I finally had to admit.
It had reason, logic and diamond-clarity simplicity in its truth. It's blinding honesty metaphorically slapped me upside the head, and made me sit up and listen.

Now, I'm not even talking profound, deeply significant, highly evolved and thoroughly illuminating teachings.
I'm actually talking about the relatively simple things.
I guess their simplicity and plain, clear no-nonsense logic made them all the harder to take in and accept.

It's tough being an idiot. But it can be wonderfully sobering, at times..... :smile:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/
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Re: Signature

Postby Fede » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:53 pm

Hoo wrote:Then there is the phenomema of the "Silent Buddha." To me in my fledgling Buddhism, this looks like a pretty good scenario for arriving at a truth by yourself.

No argument or debate is invited. Sharing of understandings is always welcome :) I'd be interested if the Silent Buddha concept strikes others as a good example.

Hoo


Not to me.
I find the Silent Buddha to actually be an echo....All that we learn we have absorbed before, or been demonstrated. Sometimes the same bit of 'Truth' can come to us in different guises, but we are only able to accept the last one, (for then we become converts to this 'truth') because it has been presented to us on a wavelength upon which we are most receptive.


I personally feel.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/
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Re: Signature

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:57 pm

Hoo wrote: I'd be interested if the Silent Buddha concept strikes others as a good example.
The Buddha was silent about somethings in particular contexts. He, otherwise, had a lot to say.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Signature

Postby Annapurna » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:39 pm

Hoo wrote:.

"Everything changes." A piece of common knowledge for thousands of years, another truth that is really learned when it's experienced, IMO.

Then there is the phenomema of the "Silent Buddha." To me in my fledgling Buddhism, this looks like a pretty good scenario for arriving at a truth by yourself.

No argument or debate is invited. Sharing of understandings is always welcome :) I'd be interested if the Silent Buddha concept strikes others as a good example.

Hoo


Yes, it does. Impermanence is also a good one. When I came across Buddhist scriptures, I was relieved that I am not the only one thinking like this.

But it was a good time. In many ways much more peaceful, clearer..

I wonder lately if I am benefitting from the back and forth in forums.
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Re: Signature

Postby Goofaholix » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:25 am

Ben wrote:Yes. But if one continues to hold the view that the teaching is only valid if it is to our own liking or is in concord with our own rationalization or the way we think about ourselves and the world, then it would suggest to me that the practice of that individual has stalled.


I don't think he said anything about teaching having to be to our own liking or is in concord with our own rationalization or the way we think about ourselves and the world, he just said it didn't have to be based on believing others.

Ben wrote: is a very poor substitute for real wisdom.


Real wisdom is what I thought he was talking about.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Signature

Postby Ben » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:24 am

Hi Goof,

Goofaholix wrote:
Ben wrote:Yes. But if one continues to hold the view that the teaching is only valid if it is to our own liking or is in concord with our own rationalization or the way we think about ourselves and the world, then it would suggest to me that the practice of that individual has stalled.


I don't think he said anything about teaching having to be to our own liking or is in concord with our own rationalization or the way we think about ourselves and the world, he just said it didn't have to be based on believing others.

Ben wrote: is a very poor substitute for real wisdom.


Real wisdom is what I thought he was talking about.


I wasn't having a go at Aj Buddhadassa. I suspect that the quote had been lifted out of something which would have provided much greater context. My comment was regarding an observation of some people only accepting those teachings which were to their liking or according to their specious reasoning. I guess we all start from the position of interpreting the Dhamma through the prism of our own ignorance, but if we stay there and use specious reasoning to accept or reject teachings according to personal preferences or blind reverence to one's latter-day teacher, then I think something maybe amiss.
My apologies for the misunderstanding.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
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Re: Signature

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:27 am

"it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others."

I take this to mean that one can perceive logically how something might be true and that there is a readily apparent way of finding out directly for oneself.

Basically, if the Dhamma is conveyed to an individual in such a way as to appear to that person as something totally illogical and therefore perceived as something that person cannot act upon, then the Dhamma has not been conveyed.

Just a thought

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Signature

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:02 am

gabrielbranbury wrote:"it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others."

Basically, if the Dhamma is conveyed to an individual in such a way as to appear to that person as something totally illogical and therefore perceived as something that person cannot act upon,
To "act upon" it would require some degree of belief.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Signature

Postby PeterB » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:05 am

We are unlikely to proceed without an element of Saddha. But I dont think that sig precludes that.
My reading is that at some point with perseverance Saddha has its fruits, but that simply introjecting the Saddha of another will short circuit that process and leave one marooned with a belief system.
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Re: Signature

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:36 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:"it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others."

Basically, if the Dhamma is conveyed to an individual in such a way as to appear to that person as something totally illogical and therefore perceived as something that person cannot act upon,
To "act upon" it would require some degree of belief.



The more logical something appears to me the more likley I am to believe it.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Signature

Postby bodom » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:46 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:"it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others."

Basically, if the Dhamma is conveyed to an individual in such a way as to appear to that person as something totally illogical and therefore perceived as something that person cannot act upon,
To "act upon" it would require some degree of belief.



The more logical something appears to me the more likley I am to believe it.


So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture...


Just saying...

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Signature

Postby Hoo » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:52 pm

Annapurna wrote:
I wonder lately if I am benefitting from the back and forth in forums.


Generally speaking, I do benefit, but there is a price to be paid sometimes, IMHO. I find that forums are not a collection of role models. The down side of that is that I get to read periodic posts that make me wonder just where the Buddha is in all that. That actually helps remind me not get deep into "me and mine." Seeing someone else do it serves as a good reminder of just how often I do it, too. :toilet:

The up side, for me, is that there are sometimes some real gems that are posted. Sometimes they answer a question that I didn't know I even had. Sometimes they point the way to something I've been looking for. Sometimes they post the source in Sutta, which I really appreciate!

Probably the biggest benefit, though, is how it shows that I have little equanimity in my practice. Why does a topic matter so much that my passion rises? Whether in agreement or disagreement, when was "I" elected to be a judge of what's right or wrong? Why do I pick up a particular topic, for the benefit of the other or to benefit myself? And if it's "for the other person," is the payoff really that I get one of the worldly concerns?

The price I pay is getting discouraged. I look at some of the alleged old-timers and expect to see a better performing version than I am. I look at those not so old-time and wonder why all of them are such a mixed bag of behavior. It's just more of "I/me/mine" that's operating, of course, but I really wish that all electronic Buddhists were wonderful, kind, practicing the Brahmaviharas, etc. On my better days I understand that everyone is just a human trapped in Samsara, and even the Buddhists are various degrees of "accomplished." So I need to quit evaluating them and wondering where the Buddha is in their behavior. It's when "my expectations for Buddhists" aren't being met that I get discouraged - pretty good example of creating my own suffering - huh? At least I sometimes catch it now and can ask myself the same question, " Where is the Buddha in what I am doing right now?"

Retreat, teachers and study seem to be the common tools for making headway and that's what I'm about to do again. There's nothing within hours in the way of teachers and retreats so I engineer my own from time to time. I become more reclusive and study Sutta more, pick up my dropped habits of sitting and mindful meditation, etc. The other thing I do is drop way off from forum reading because I find that my information needs are better met in Sutta, especially when I'm in retreat mode.

I don't know if you will find my rambling useful or not, Anna. It's just what came to mind when I read your post and I thought I'd share it with you.

With Metta,
Hoo
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Re: Signature

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:55 pm

So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by [b]logical conjecture...

Just saying...

:anjali:


Logical conjecture is still a provisionally useful tool. Also We normal folk cant help but do it anyway. Here I think the Buddha is just asking us to add some extra helpful tools like the discernment of effects and the consulting of wise opinion.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Signature

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:14 pm

bodom wrote:
So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture...


Just saying...
Why would you believe that?



"So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher." When you know for yourselves that, "These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness" — then you should enter & remain in them.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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