I am tired

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I am tired

Postby Pebble » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:13 am

I am tired of feeling so weak, helpless, and sick.
I am tired of not being able to take control of my self and do the right things.
I am tired of being bored and not productive.
I am tired of being afraid, feeling constant anxiety and depression.
I am tired of feeling insecure, angry and jealous.
I am tired of being tired.

I must meditate regularly, constant mindfulness...because I feel like samsara is driving me insane
We are like pebbles on the beach, constantly being hit by waves of Samsara...yet pebbles don't struggle
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Re: I am tired

Postby Kim OHara » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:38 am

You have my sympathy - like most people, I've been there, done that. :console:
The way out is simple in theory - mindfulness and the Eightfold Noble Path, guided by meditation - but in practice it's often difficult either to get started or to maintain momentum.
The trouble is that we become set in our zombie-like ways and need to be kicked, or gently encouraged :tongue: to get out of them. That's what friends are so good for.
Hang out with positive people as often as possible - their attitudes will rub off on you.
:namaste:
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Re: I am tired

Postby Ben » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:45 am

Greeting Pebble,
Ever considered a residential meditation retreat?
It could just be the ticket - for you.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: I am tired

Postby manas » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:31 am

Hi pebble,
something that keeps me humble is when I remember that it is basically the Dharma that keeps me from sliding into deeper depression than I often experience. (What a wonderful tool the Satipatthana sutta is, teaching us to simply know things as they are, and not to cling to them as 'me' or 'mine'. Great when painful thoughts arise!).

I remember looking out my back window, lamenting how difficult it is to practice Dhamma when your life is as painful as mine (I've got alot of 'problems' from the material point of view). I was complaining (not sure who to), but basically the mindset was "It's easier for less emotionally damaged, less financially impoverished (etc) people to practice Dhamma, if only I was like them, if only my mind was brighter due to having had a happier life...and then IT STRUCK ME: (Wisdom spoke)"Either way you would still have to let go of self-view. The Way is beyond the opposites of attraction and aversion. The happy person needs to let go of happiness, the sad person needs to let go of sadness. Either way you would still have to let go...so being a person whose mind inclines to sorrow should not hinder you - USE IT (the sadness in the mind) as practice for letting go of identification with the state of mind." After perceiving this, I felt...joyful! (For the rest of that day, anyway. ;))

Now I still suffer almost every day, but I can see a bit more clearly how most of my grief is really silly considering the incalculable blessings of having a human form, having heard the Dhamma, and having the capacity to touch on some of it's meaning. But I still understand how you feel, because it's just not that easy...I know! :) Just do what you can, every little bit creates a wholesome momentum in the mind, and increases the ease by which more wholesome thoughts / words / actions can come into being. Hang on to that Noble Eightfold Path by whatever means necessary...As much as you are able...but don't be a perfectionist!
Primum non nocere: "first, do no harm."
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Re: I am tired

Postby ground » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:43 am

If your tiredness would be transformed into being completely fed up with samsara, disgusting it then right effort may result.

Kind regards
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Re: I am tired

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:47 am

Greetings Pebble,

Many of the above are symptoms of depression - if that's a possibility, you might want to investigate your options in that space, if you've not already done so.

As I type this, I've got my blue-light seasonal affective disorder light shining in my eyes, helping regulate my seratonin and melatonin levels and helping offset depression and its symptoms.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: I am tired

Postby manas » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Pebble,

Many of the above are symptoms of depression - if that's a possibility, you might want to investigate your options in that space, if you've not already done so.

As I type this, I've got my blue-light seasonal affective disorder light shining in my eyes, helping regulate my seratonin and melatonin levels and helping offset depression and its symptoms.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Retro, by this do you mean that there is a 'space' (ie special forum) here in this website for Dhamma practitioners who have to deal with depression? Or did you mean something else...?
Primum non nocere: "first, do no harm."
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Re: I am tired

Postby manas » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:22 am

Hey pebble, I just remembered something else...the tendency to ruminate (constantly go over things in the mind / overuse the thinking process) can become a real problem for some (for me it is anyway). Sometimes I have to use force with myself, tear myself away from this PC or up off the couch and DO something, anything. (Obviously making sure it is a good action!) But I am learning (so I am 'speaking across, not down' since I am similarly struggling at present) to 'Think less, and do more.' I believe that there is only so much our intellect can figure out, after a while we have to just lay it down to rest for a while. I also intuit that the modern sedentary lifestyle tends to increase the likelihood of depression. Some of us (myself for example) need to stop thinking so much, and just LIVE.
May we all find our way through the fog :)
M.
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Re: I am tired

Postby Fede » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:28 am

Pebble, I am so sorry to hear of your fatigue.

Please follow the advice of all here, but consider - if you have not already done so - seeking professional help, even if it means finding someone qualified, to simply talk to....

I wish you well.
I for one have felt that I have plummeted to the depths of despair, but I know that in comparison to many, my own issues are really nothing much to be concerned about. Hold fast, friend.
This WILL pass.
Find someone to confide in. (PM me, if you like.)
But find someone who can give you authoritative guidance on finding your way through this.
And I also advise you to just sit, and let things be.
They cannot 'be' like this for ever.....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: I am tired

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:53 am

Greetings Manasikara,

manasikara wrote:Retro, by this do you mean that there is a 'space' (ie special forum) here in this website for Dhamma practitioners who have to deal with depression?

No, but people are welcome to do so as long as they abide by the relevant section of the Terms of Service...

4. Members who are suffering from mental illnesses.

Dhamma Wheel is for the exploration and discussion of the Dhamma. While the aim of the Dhamma is to provide a path to the end of suffering, members of Dhamma Wheel are not qualified to deal with acute episodes of mental illness of another, as expressed on a discussion forum. The Administrators and Moderators of Dhamma Wheel request your compliance with regards to the following guidelines which is designed for the benefit of all:

-- Members who are suffering a serious mental illness should seek diagnosis and treatment from a qualified medical professional within their community. Members who are suffering from an acute phase of a mental illness, including intention to self harm and/or suicidal should seek immediate assistance. http://www.befrienders.org/index.asp
-- Members who are experiencing an acute phase of mental illness or suicidal ideation welcome to seek referral to medical and crisis services from administrators and moderators.
-- Members are asked not to use Dhamma Wheel as a platform to express intentions of self harm or suicide, the experience of voices or other hallucinations or other artefacts of acute mental illness.
-- When encountering a member suffering an acute episode of a mental illness, we should treat that member with compassion and refer that member to medical/emergency services within that person's community and to Dhamma Wheel staff.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: I am tired

Postby 5heaps » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:31 pm

Pebble wrote:I must meditate regularly, constant mindfulness...

yes, dont forget that just as negative qualities are suffering it takes more skill to understand that positive ones are suffering as well
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Re: I am tired

Postby Moth » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:10 pm

The quickest cure I've found for depression is Metta meditation and just developing Metta in general. This is because it takes us out of our self-concerned mindset and humbles us. Simplify your life. Simplify your desires. Without selfish thought, there is no basis for depression. The more you cultivate this mentality the more life takes on a childlike simplicity. After awhile things wont seem so serious anymore, the thoughts and problems you once felt were important will seem silly in retrospect. Just remember that every being on this planet is suffering. You are not alone. Suffering is the first noble truth.
Last edited by Moth on Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I am tired

Postby Hoo » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:11 pm

....The key is to accept things as they happen, not run from, over analyze, or repress them. The essential question of Buddhism is how to overcome suffering, so you could consider the Buddha as the ultimate psychiatrist. Why then would you turn to a inferior system....


Well, because IMHO, Buddhism isn't the cure for everything, right now, and I don't know a Buddhist I trust to make judgements in both worlds.

I don't turn to Buddhism for medical treatment of anything. If there is a medical component to my condition, it takes a doctor to diagnose and prescribe the appropriate meds. All the practice in the world will not change my medical needs - now. All the medicine in the world will not change my behavioral needs.

Medicine and therapy aren't inferior systems, they are simply different. IMHO, they are also the best for their specific kinds of problems.

Hoo, going off the soap box now :)

As always, these are just my views and worth exactly nothing. So feel free to disregard them if you wish :)
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Re: I am tired

Postby Modus.Ponens » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:37 am

Moth wrote:As someone who has been through several anti-depressants, therapists, etc I would not recommend going in that direction. The concept of depression as a physical illness is, in my opinion, a farse.


I'm sorry to say but those are very unwise words.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: I am tired

Postby nameless » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:58 am

Oftentimes I find that it is not where I find myself at that causes suffering, but rather my desire to not be there. But that just causes problems out of nothing because the point in time where I suffer from a desire to not be there, is often the point in time where I can't help but be there.

Weak, helpless, sick. Is there anything wrong with that? We were all born weak and helpless, some of us sick. That's just the nature of humans. Sometimes we overcome it sometimes we can't.

Not being able to take control of yourself? Good! Then you realize that the 'self' doesn't belong to you.

Doing the right thing? Maybe there is a 'right' thing. Maybe not. But if there is, are you seeking the 'right' thing to do, or are you just punishing yourself for not following the conventions that others have enforced on you for their own convenience?

Boredom isn't suffering because there's nothing to do, but rather it's the desire to do something else. Maybe something 'productive'? But what really does that mean? Society conditions us to have certain concepts of productivity because it wants us to be productive, for its own convenience. Is one activity worth more than another? If so who measures that worth and how is it measured? Not saying whether there is or isn't, but perhaps it's something to reflect on rather than having thoughts such as "I'm not being productive (as society demands) therefore there's something wrong with me".

All the best, hope you feel better soon.
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Re: I am tired

Postby Moth » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:50 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Moth wrote:As someone who has been through several anti-depressants, therapists, etc I would not recommend going in that direction. The concept of depression as a physical illness is, in my opinion, a farse.


I'm sorry to say but those are very unwise words.


Why?
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Re: I am tired

Postby Fede » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:24 pm

Because you are completely unqualified and unentitled to make such sweeping unequivocal statements.
You are not a trained, approved psychiatrist, counsellor, therapist or medic.
To make such opinionated comments is both dangerous and inadvisable.
you have no basis in your opinion, except your own experience.

To make such a sweeping statement is highly uneducated, unskillful and highly questionable.
It is not for you to make such diagnoses but if the OP needs counsel, feedback or support from one qualified to do so, she should seek such assistance.
All I know is that if a particular member of my family had listened to you they would probably have done themselves serious injury by now, or worse.
Your advice is questionable at best, and perilous at worst.
In actual fact, your post made me quite angry, and I was quite horrifed to see such irresponsible posting.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: I am tired

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:03 pm

Moth wrote:As someone who has been through several anti-depressants, therapists, etc I would not recommend going in that direction. . . .
It is not only inappropriate but dangerous to to generalize from the particular.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: I am tired

Postby alan » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:28 pm

Pebble,
How often do you exercise?
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Re: I am tired

Postby Moth » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:11 am

Fede wrote:Because you are completely unqualified and unentitled to make such sweeping unequivocal statements.
You are not a trained, approved psychiatrist, counsellor, therapist or medic.
To make such opinionated comments is both dangerous and inadvisable.
you have no basis in your opinion, except your own experience.

To make such a sweeping statement is highly uneducated, unskillful and highly questionable.
It is not for you to make such diagnoses but if the OP needs counsel, feedback or support from one qualified to do so, she should seek such assistance.
All I know is that if a particular member of my family had listened to you they would probably have done themselves serious injury by now, or worse.
Your advice is questionable at best, and perilous at worst.
In actual fact, your post made me quite angry, and I was quite horrifed to see such irresponsible posting.


I apologize for upsetting you. I should not have generalized my personal experience. I've modified my original post to exclude my discouragement of psychiatry. I agree, if someone is self-destructive I should not persuade them out of seeking professional help as I may be risking their safety. If someone is new to Buddhism perhaps it is better for them to seek something more immediate. Also, I should not have included therapy in my response as it has no detrimental effects and can only be helpful. My intention was to share the opinion, from one Buddhist to another, that true and lasting peace can never come from an external agent, be it a drug or a person. That if someone is looking to overcome depression then there is no better place to turn than the teachings of the Buddha and his prescribed practices--in this case Metta meditation. By my understanding of Dharma, depression can be overcome through the minimization of one's desires, an indifference towards both loss and gain, and the cultivation of kindness and compassion towards all beings. Life needn't be taken so seriously, better to be as a child and :smile:.
Last edited by Moth on Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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