Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
MisterRunon
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by MisterRunon »

tiltbillings wrote:
MisterRunon wrote:
To me, following the instructions verbatim take a backseat to actually achieving great insight.
Always the question, however, as to how we determine that someone has achieved "great insight."
His insights seem to be consistent with Buddhist teachings, and here's a link of a post he made 3 months after the course http://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/commen ... ma/ckpv24e
I indeed wrote this! Although it's already been 3 months since I came back from the retreat, I'm definitely still in a period of "integration" of my previous insights. It's hard to point out precisely what has changed, but I definitely "feel better", although it's more a sense of "everything is fine" than conventional "good feelings". There clearly is a lot more "space" in everything I do, and I feel like I'm "holding back" a lot less (letting go much more easily). I also feel like I am much more centered in the "now", and life seems to happen effortlessly and joyfully.
chownah
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
MisterRunon wrote:
To me, following the instructions verbatim take a backseat to actually achieving great insight.
Always the question, however, as to how we determine that someone has achieved "great insight."
Didn't the buddha answer this saying something more or less like one should observe the person in daily life and look for certain things like non-fabrication, guarding the truth, and equanimity among others?
chownah
P.S. The closest I have got to this with Ingram was watching a few minutes of a video on line.....and frankly he seemed rather lacking in equanimity.
chownah
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Mkoll
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by Mkoll »

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
MisterRunon wrote:
To me, following the instructions verbatim take a backseat to actually achieving great insight.
Always the question, however, as to how we determine that someone has achieved "great insight."
Didn't the buddha answer this saying something more or less like one should observe the person in daily life and look for certain things like non-fabrication, guarding the truth, and equanimity among others?
chownah
P.S. The closest I have got to this with Ingram was watching a few minutes of a video on line.....and frankly he seemed rather lacking in equanimity.
chownah
Yes, but I don't remember the exact sutta. MN 47 is close but it talks about how to judge the Tathāgata. The other I'm thinking of that talks about investigating others is similar but with fewer criteria I think.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
MisterRunon
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by MisterRunon »

chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
MisterRunon wrote:
To me, following the instructions verbatim take a backseat to actually achieving great insight.
Always the question, however, as to how we determine that someone has achieved "great insight."
Didn't the buddha answer this saying something more or less like one should observe the person in daily life and look for certain things like non-fabrication, guarding the truth, and equanimity among others?
chownah
P.S. The closest I have got to this with Ingram was watching a few minutes of a video on line.....and frankly he seemed rather lacking in equanimity.
chownah
Do you have some examples (RE: Daniel Ingram, not the Buddha)? I don't doubt you, but I'd like to see what you are specifically referencing to.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by tiltbillings »

    • After only a year and a half of practice at Wat Ba Pong, one American [Jack Kornfield] asked and received permission [from Ajahn Chah] to travel and study with other Thai and Burmese teachers. A year or two later, he returned full of tales of his travels, of many months of extraordinary and intensive practice and of a number of remarkable experiences. . . . Then the Western monk went to the cottage of Achaan Sumedho, the senior Western disciple of Achaan Chah, and told all his stories and adventures, his new understandings and great insights into practice. Sumedho listened in silence and prepared afternoon tea from the roots of certain forest plants. When the stories were completed and the insights recounted, Sumedho smiled and said, "Ah, how wonderful. Something else to let go of."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
chownah
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by chownah »

MisterRunon wrote:
chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Always the question, however, as to how we determine that someone has achieved "great insight."
Didn't the buddha answer this saying something more or less like one should observe the person in daily life and look for certain things like non-fabrication, guarding the truth, and equanimity among others?
chownah
P.S. The closest I have got to this with Ingram was watching a few minutes of a video on line.....and frankly he seemed rather lacking in equanimity.
chownah
Do you have some examples (RE: Daniel Ingram, not the Buddha)? I don't doubt you, but I'd like to see what you are specifically referencing to.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are requesting.
chownah
MisterRunon
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by MisterRunon »

chownah wrote: P.S. The closest I have got to this with Ingram was watching a few minutes of a video on line.....and frankly he seemed rather lacking in equanimity.
chownah
VIdeos of Daniel lacking equanimity.
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Mkoll
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by Mkoll »

MisterRunon wrote:
chownah wrote: P.S. The closest I have got to this with Ingram was watching a few minutes of a video on line.....and frankly he seemed rather lacking in equanimity.
chownah
VIdeos of Daniel lacking equanimity.
Look at the video I posted back on page uh, 32 or 36 or 38. Something like that. Just scroll down the page till you see the video, should be obvious.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by Modus.Ponens »

culaavuso wrote:
theend wrote: 2) Taking "drugs" is not one of the 5 or 9 things an arahat cannot do (according to those suttas).
Perhaps AN 8.41 is worth adding to the list of suttas mentioned:
AN 8.41: Saṅkhitta Aṭṭhaṅg­uposatha Sutta wrote: The Blessed One said this:

“Bhikkhus, observed complete in eight factors, the uposatha is of great fruit and benefit, extraordinarily brilliant and pervasive. And how is the uposatha observed complete in eight factors, so that it is of great fruit and benefit, extraordinarily brilliant and pervasive?
...
“Here, bhikkhus, a noble disciple reflects thus:
...
“‘As long as they live the arahants abandon and abstain from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness. Today, for this night and day, I too shall abandon and abstain from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness. I shall imitate the arahants in this respect and the uposatha will be observed by me.’ This is the fifth factor it possesses.
In other words: arahants, understanding the excellence of heedfulness (appamāda), abstain from that which serves as a basis (ṭhana) for heedlessness (pamāda).
Dhp 2 (Appamāda Vagga): 22 wrote: Clearly understanding this excellence of heedfulness, the wise exult therein and enjoy the resort of the Noble Ones.
Thank you, culaavuso, for the reference. It is not exactly what I had in mind, but I could very well be remembering it wrong.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
chownah
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Post by chownah »

MisterRunon wrote:
chownah wrote: P.S. The closest I have got to this with Ingram was watching a few minutes of a video on line.....and frankly he seemed rather lacking in equanimity.
chownah
VIdeos of Daniel lacking equanimity.
I looked at the video that Mkoll mentions on page 38 and I looked starting at about 2:08.

Please note that watching someone in a video is not the same as watching them in everyday life. Making a decision about someone's character based on viewing videos is probably almost always a bad idea. I have not made any sort of definite conclusion as to Ingram's character based on the video but was mostly just chatting on about this and that......
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Sus scrofa
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Sus scrofa »

I only wanted to say here - that Ingram made me quite interested with buddhism (previously I was a lot into hinduism but without joining any cult). I did some practice based on his "Mastering ..." book but then I got quite skeptical about him based on my thoughts on what he's saying and searched the Internet for theravada buddhists opinioning him which got me to this forum. I think that whole of the discussion about him might be summarised by the beginning of Alagaddūpama Sutta with the part on monk Arittha. That part is quite short so I think anybody interested can read it by themselves.

I think Ingram does something good for buddhism but I'm confused as to is he not eliminating too much of the content as dogma. Who knows - maybe it's just dangerous to dive deeply into practice and not follow the "dogma" - it seems that it is there for a reason and it's not only for monks.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by practitioner »

There were two long time meditators whose brain disappeared under MRI. This happened during a research by a Harvard Medical School neuroscientist.

It seems that those two meditators have actually attained at least one of the 4 stages of enlightenment.

Including myself, I understand how people like to have verification. Isn't conceit part of ego. The fact that one declares "I am one" does that signify that one's ego is not completely eradicated. Isn't there a way to help others progress and feel confident about progress without declaration? Such as, I experienced this and that. Currently, my experience in life has been like this or that. Share the experience that one has without saying what one has attained. Share the sutra or publications that are interpretation of sutra so others can read and verify for themselves.

Experiences will be different but there are always a common core of experiences among the diversity.

I know that an enlightened person is silent and speak only necessary and generally about dhamma topic. He is abandoned clinging to views. If he has abandoned the notion of self then you can tell that his manner to speech is spoken from consciousness rather than from "I".

I strive to practice from both direction. From practice towards enlightenment and from practicing the way enlightened being behaves.

There is certain truth to behave as if you are already the one you want to be. This doesn't totally apply to the cultivation of enlightenment but it does partially apply. You practice from top to bottom and bottom to top. In my opinion, this helps to accelerate the path.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Cittasanto »

practitioner wrote:There were two long time meditators whose brain disappeared under MRI. This happened during a research by a Harvard Medical School neuroscientist.

It seems that those two meditators have actually attained at least one of the 4 stages of enlightenment.
Care to provide supporting evidence for this?
There is a far simpler reason, that the machines malfunctioned somehow.
There is certain truth to behave as if you are already the one you want to be. This doesn't totally apply to the cultivation of enlightenment but it does partially apply. You practice from top to bottom and bottom to top. In my opinion, this helps to accelerate the path.
Not necessarily, this can become a hypocritical act, because you are acting out of sorts to the truth of the moment. Suppressing and repressing inappropriately.

Lhiats Dy firrinagh focklagh
Cittasanto
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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davidbrainerd
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by davidbrainerd »

I'll offer my two cents on this topic. On page 157 of the book Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha which I downloaded a few minutes ago from the Integrated Daniel website, where he is attempting to explain anatta:
You see, as all phenomena are observed, they cannot possibly be the observer. Thus, the observer, which is awareness and not any of the phenomena pretending to be it, cannot possibly be a phenomenon and thus is not localized and doesn't exist. This is no-self.
I agree until the part I've put in bolded italics, which is where I think he goes horribly awry. [Well actually, I wouldn't say that the observer "is awareness" either.] And then it gets worse:
However, all of these phenomena are actually us from the point of view of non-duality and interconnectedness, as the illusion of duality is just an illusion.
This is clear Mahayana, but not what Buddha says in the Pali Canon. MN 22 "Therefore, monks, give up whatever is not yours. Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness. What is it that is not yours?..[Form, Feeling, Perception, Dispositions, Sensory Consciousness]...Give it up! Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness." That is a clear duality between you/yours and not-you/not-yours. That duality is largely the whole point of Buddha's Buddhism.

But, the Integrated Daniel continues:
When the illusion of duality permanently collapses in final awakening, all that is left is all of these phenomena, which is True Self, i.e. the lack of a separate self and thus just all of this as it is. Remember, however, that no phenomena abide for even an instant, and so are empty of permanent abiding and thus of stable existence.
If anything, I think final awakening would be a heightened sense of duality, that results in total lack of ability to any longer conceive of the non-self as being the self, a duality in which you transcend any possibility of mixing up the two things any longer.

Yet, further down at the end of page 157 and continuing to page 158, the Integrated Daniel says:
No-self and True Self are really just two sides of the same coin. There is a great little poem by one Kalu Rinpoche that goes something like:
We live in illusion
And the appearance of things.
There is a reality;
We are that reality.
When you understand this,
You will see that you are nothing.
And, being nothing,
You are everything.
That is all.
Again, this Mahayana way of thinking contradicts MN 22, because if this was true then Buddha is wrong to say to the monks "Therefore, monks, give up whatever is not yours. Your giving it up will for a long time bring you welfare and happiness." And I certainly don't think Buddha is wrong on this! This duality between self and not-self is THE core teaching of Buddha. I don't think a book can rightly be called Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha when it has this one so confused.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Post by Modus.Ponens »

In relation to the brainscans and disappearence, Am I right to assume that, in case that happened, it was brain activity which was gone?

Regarding the above quotes from the Buddha I don't see them as dualistic. The process of letting go body, sensations, perceptions, volitions and consciousness lays bare the following: since there is nothing else that constitutes a person, when every constituent is abandoned as being not self, there is nothing left to even be considered self. So there is no self.

As for Ingram's teachings, I think they are compatible with some hermeneutical approaches to the suttas. If you try to be make a charitable interpretation of his writings, I think it is the case of the mentioned paragraph that it is compatible with buddhist doctrine.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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