Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

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Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby smokey » Tue May 25, 2010 10:07 pm

What do you think? He does not sound like an Arahant to me judging by what I read on his website and in his book. He works as a doctor for money... would an Arahant do that? In his book he lies out of a jest and sweares. He also says this on his website:
"Oh, yes, a brief warning. I should mention that I am hardcore, into hardcore practice, into very hard-hitting dharma, and sometimes I let it out with both barrels. This seems to happen more when I talk on the phone with people, which I do on occasion, but it also happens in emails at times. I expect people to be self-reliant to a high degree, and projections both negative and positive tend to piss me off. I probably should be more understanding, but clearly at times am not. If it happens with you and you are sure nothing good came of it, my apologies, but at least you were warned. Particularly, avoid statements such as, "You claim to be enlightened so you must..." and "I really need you to help me through...", as both are very likely some wild distortion of how things actually are. Avoid projections, stay empowered and focused on the practical and how you yourself can attain these insights, and all should go well."

I am still not excluding a view that he really might be an Arahant although it does not seem to be so, but what do you guys and girls think?
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby altar » Tue May 25, 2010 10:17 pm

It seems odd that he espouses a view of openness regarding attainments, "getting it out in the open," so to speak, and at the same time discourages people from questioning these statements.
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue May 25, 2010 10:25 pm

do you want him to be an arahant?




ps there is already a thread on him.
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby smokey » Tue May 25, 2010 10:27 pm

jcsuperstar wrote:do you want him to be an arahant?




ps there is already a thread on him.


Sorry JC, I was just asking for an opinion.
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Tue May 25, 2010 10:28 pm

Ajahn Mun speaks about keeping one's mouth shut to avoid doing damage to the sasana in his biography. I don't see the kind of humility that I would want to see in an arahant in Daniel Ingram. If he is an arahant it's in a way that was never taught by the Buddha and cannot be found in the suttas.
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby bodom » Tue May 25, 2010 10:29 pm

Would an Arahant get "pissed off"?

Also see:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3717

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby smokey » Tue May 25, 2010 10:39 pm

bodom wrote:Would an Arahant get "pissed off"?

Also see:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3717

:anjali:


I agree. An Arahant would not get angry.
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue May 25, 2010 11:12 pm

smokey wrote:
Sorry JC, I was just asking for an opinion.


no need to apologize, but my question remains. many of us want to find someone who has reached the other shore, some sort of proof that it can be done (beyond long passed Indian guys) and will spend a lot of time investigating these types of people, and there are many to get swept up and away by.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby Virgo » Tue May 25, 2010 11:53 pm

He is not an Arahant. And - and I don't mean to sound fundamental - but stating that you are an Arahant and misleading people will probably land you in hell for a long time if you are aware that you are not really an Arahant but pose as one anyway. The other possibility is that he believes he is an arahant but that he is not. At this time, according to the commentaries, the highest possible attainment while on earth in the human realm is Anagami, not Arahant.

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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby Kenshou » Wed May 26, 2010 12:12 am

smokey wrote:I agree. An Arahant would not get angry.


Well the thing is, his idea of an arahant is something rather different than the traditional Buddhist idea. He rejects that model for the most part.

Personally my impression is that Daniel's idea of arahantship is something similar to what stream-entry is in the traditional model.
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 26, 2010 12:22 am

jcsuperstar wrote:do you want him to be an arahant?




ps there is already a thread on him.

Mod note: The new thread has been merged with the older threads.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby nathan » Wed May 26, 2010 12:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:Mod note: The new thread has been merged with the older threads.


I suggest renaming it 'the long piss on Daniel thread' because that is the consistent theme of the posts. I'm not suggesting he is an Arahant or not and I honestly don't care. His emphasis was on challenging the view that no one should discuss the realization of arahatta. I think the widespread display of disbelief that anyone is an Arahant that characterizes every thread, anywhere on Arahants that I have ever read is more than enough support for the traditional attitude.

The lesson for everyone here is, whatever you have actually realized, keep it to yourself or prepare to be mocked and disparaged for suggesting in any way that you actually realize, know or understand truths that people would prefer to argue about in purely and entirely abstract and theoretical terms.

(Btw, there is a whole sub-forum on Daniels Dharma Overground Forum where you can challenge his or anyone else claims directly as opposed to merely spreading gossip and innuendos. Enjoy.)
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby bodom » Wed May 26, 2010 12:57 am

Everyone knows your not enlightened unless your names on the cover of a New York Times self help best seller. Oh and your also Oprahs book club pick of the week. :tongue:

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The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 26, 2010 1:20 am

nathan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Mod note: The new thread has been merged with the older threads.


I suggest renaming it 'the long piss on Daniel thread' because that is the consistent theme of the posts. I'm not suggesting he is an Arahant or not and I honestly don't care. His emphasis was on challenging the view that no one should discuss the realization of arahatta. I think the widespread display of disbelief that anyone is an Arahant that characterizes every thread, anywhere on Arahants that I have ever read is more than enough support for the traditional attitude.
Sometime, in your contrarian role you have assigned to yourself, you kind of miss things. Ingram claims to be an arahant, but then dismisses the basic sutta decsriptions of how an arahant is characterized, leaving us with a arahant who gets horny, guzzles beer, gets cranky, lies, kills living beings, etc. Kind of hard to take him seriously: The sutta description is wrong, but mine is correct.

Ingram pisses on himself.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby bodom » Wed May 26, 2010 1:24 am

The truth of the matter is is that the most realised Buddhist practitioners, whether stream enterer's, once returner's and so on, are not hanging out on Buddhist Forums, on Facebook or writing best sellers. The most enlightened individuals are living in obscurity, in forest wats and monasteries and the truth is we will probably never come into contact with them or there teachings. And please dont get me wrong, this is not to say there are not highly realised and learned individuals posting here at Dhamma Wheel, because there are.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby appicchato » Wed May 26, 2010 1:33 am

bodom wrote:The truth of the matter is is that the most realised Buddhist practitioners...are not hanging out on Buddhist Forums, on Facebook or writing best sellers. The most enlightened individuals are living in obscurity, in forest wats and monasteries...


I'm (a little) curious where these ideas come from...
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby nathan » Wed May 26, 2010 3:41 am

tiltbillings wrote:
nathan wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Mod note: The new thread has been merged with the older threads.


I suggest renaming it 'the long piss on Daniel thread' because that is the consistent theme of the posts. I'm not suggesting he is an Arahant or not and I honestly don't care. His emphasis was on challenging the view that no one should discuss the realization of arahatta. I think the widespread display of disbelief that anyone is an Arahant that characterizes every thread, anywhere on Arahants that I have ever read is more than enough support for the traditional attitude.
Sometime, in your contrarian role you have assigned to yourself, you kind of miss things. Ingram claims to be an arahant, but then dismisses the basic sutta decsriptions of how an arahant is characterized, leaving us with a arahant who gets horny, guzzles beer, gets cranky, lies, kills living beings, etc. Kind of hard to take him seriously: The sutta description is wrong, but mine is correct.

Ingram pisses on himself.
Contrarian? I was doing my best to take a middle way. I suppose this goes to show how for most the middle way is actually the middle of one view being the only right one. All I have ever pointed out is that simply criticizing the guy isn't helping anyone. All he is actually into doing is helping people do insight practice and being an ordinary married guy who works as an emergency room MD. He is willing to discuss this stuff. So I have questioned him about his ideas and heard him out, who else here has? I disagree with his views as well in various respects but I don't go on to characterize him falsely as a drunken killer and sex fiend. So who is being contrarian really and who is simply relating to people fairly and in an open handed way regardless of their views?
Last edited by nathan on Wed May 26, 2010 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby nathan » Wed May 26, 2010 3:49 am

appicchato wrote:
bodom wrote:The truth of the matter is is that the most realised Buddhist practitioners...are not hanging out on Buddhist Forums, on Facebook or writing best sellers. The most enlightened individuals are living in obscurity, in forest wats and monasteries...


I'm (a little) curious where these ideas come from...
Me too. Is that one of the new qualifications for awakening and liberation now? It sounds a lot more like the advice Mara gave the Buddha after his awakening. I suppose the assumption that people awakened to one extent or another should hide away forever somewhere is a natural match for the frequent unwillingness to consider that anyone could even make any significant progress in realizing the objectives of the path.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 26, 2010 3:53 am

nathan wrote:Contrarian?
Pretty much.

I was doing my best to take a middle way. I suppose this goes to show how for most the middle way is actually the middle of one view being the only right one. All I have ever pointed out is that simply criticizing the guy isn't helping anyone.
Says you; however, looking at his claim in light of the teachings is a useful thing in that it helps clarify such claims.

All he is actually into doing is helping people do insight practice and being an ordinary married guy who works as an emergency room MD. He is willing to discuss this stuff.
And his claims being out there, they are open to being looked at.

So I have questioned him about his ideas and heard him out, who else here has? I disagree with his conclusions as well in various respects but I don't go on to characterize him falsely as a drunken killer and sex fiend. So who is being contrarian really and who is simply relating to people fairly and in an open handed way regardless of their views?
And who is characterizing him "as a drunken killer and sex fiend"? No one here, so damdifino what the heck you are talking about, except, being obviously contrarian.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is Daniel Ingram an Arahant?

Postby nathan » Wed May 26, 2010 4:24 am

tiltbillings wrote: looking at his claim in light of the teachings is a useful thing in that it helps clarify such claims.
Perhaps you could quote the posts in this thread where Daniel's interpretation of the nature of fetters and taints is compared with the traditional interpretations. I haven't been able to locate it.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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