Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

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gsteinb
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:57 am

Here's a recording from Kenneth Folk Dharma of three guys working through the jhanas.

http://www.divshare.com/download/12525091-c26

I'm assuming since it's on a public share site I'm not breaking any rules by posting it.

It's pretty long. They start practicing around 20 minutes in.

I'm personally interested in seeing these things vetted and I think there's public benefit.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:34 pm

gsteinb wrote:
I'm personally interested in seeing these things vetted and I think there's public benefit.
What do you think of, what do you hear when listening to this?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
gsteinb wrote:
I'm personally interested in seeing these things vetted and I think there's public benefit.
What do you think of, what do you hear when listening to this?


I'm pretty sure I heard nibs' voice.
Nibs, if you are reading this, can you confirm that you were involved in editing that recording?
If so, good to hear your voice!
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby m0rl0ck » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:56 pm

tiltbillings wrote:What do you think of, what do you hear when listening to this?


Im thinking that jhana will be an olympic event soon. My money is on the jamaican team. Grand Fenwick for the silver.

Seriously tho, its just some guys taking a tour of their mental space, wheres the harm?
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:52 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What do you think of, what do you hear when listening to this?


Im thinking that jhana will be an olympic event soon. My money is on the jamaican team. Grand Fenwick for the silver.

Seriously tho, its just some guys taking a tour of their mental space, wheres the harm?
Did I say there was harm? On the other hand, it does seem to be reducing Buddhist practice to nothing more than a bunch of mental states seemingly devoid of actual wisdom and not to mention a no small bit of autosuggestion. It keeps them off the streets, at least. No harm in that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Kenshou » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:52 pm

Tell me if I'm missing something but what does Kenneth Folk's take on jhana have to do with the topic as of recently?

There are questions and criticisms of Ingram-Folk-ism awakening still hanging in the air unaddressed, let's not swerve the topic to jhana practice.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:32 pm

The question of attainments is virtually unanswerable, as the arguments are circular

KFD forum: we're enlightened, they're not
Dhamma Wheel forum: We're not enlightened and neither are you
KFD Forum: See, they admit they're not enlightened...that's why they don't recognize we are.

sigh

The jhana recording seems more concrete, and an easier starting point to ferret out if there's anything to the assorted claims.

There's a point in the recording where one of them says

"Oh, there's the third jhana."

someone chimes in

"I'm in the eight"

So are they? Is it even possible to be conversational and be in the third jhana or beyond? I've done a lot of dialogic practice over the past 15 years and my experience is that when deeply concentrated there's necessarily much more space than was in that recording, and I wouldn't claim high jhana for any of that work. That of course doesn't mean my experiences map over. So perhaps

That doesn't address the perceived fascination with mind states, but perhaps it's a starting point to see if anything maps back and forth between the language the ingram/folk forums and the traditional understandings.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Kenshou » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:36 pm

The question of attainments is virtually unanswerable, as the arguments are circular

KFD forum: we're enlightened, they're not
Dhamma Wheel forum: We're not enlightened and neither are you
KFD Forum: See, they admit they're not enlightened...that's why they don't recognize we are.


No. This is a misrepresentation. Specific questions have been asked. If I didn't know better I would say that the questions are being avoided.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:40 pm

They're clearly not going to get answered as nibs deleted his posts and left.

I don't think it's a misrepresentation...one just needs to go back and forth between the forums and read what's posted.

that forum is misrepresenting the dhamma, this is one is filled with mushroom people.

In either case, I defend bringing up the jhana thing as it's under the umbrella of the thread topic, and a concrete thing that people can listen to, perhaps try, and decide if it's legit or not.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Kenshou » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:50 pm

They're clearly not going to get answered as nibs deleted his posts and left.


Judging by the jargon you use it seems that you might be familiar enough with the situation to provide some answers or maybe provide the means for us to find them. If not, then alright.

I don't think it's a misrepresentation...one just needs to go back and forth between the forums and read what's posted.


What I am calling a misrepresentation is your suggestion that this discussion is no more than bickering and that serious inquiries have not been raised. Because they have.

In either case, I defend bringing up the jhana thing as it's under the umbrella of the thread topic, and a concrete thing that people can listen to, perhaps try, and decide if it's legit or not.


Okay, my only contention is that I would hope that we might be able to stay on the topic that has arisen recently, that is; the core of the Hard Core Dharma's view is being questioned. This is too important of an issue to simply brush aside.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Reductor » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:56 pm

gsteinb wrote:"Oh, there's the third jhana."

someone chimes in

"I'm in the eight"


ROFL!!!! Did they say that?

*I neither perceive that I'm speaking, nor non perceive that I'm speaking, nor perceive that someone spoke or non spoke, or both non and non and did and did not and ....

If that guy was in eight, he sure wasn't the moment he opened his mouth.

And yes, it is true that I did not listen to the recording.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:57 pm

Kenshou wrote:
They're clearly not going to get answered as nibs deleted his posts and left.


Judging by the jargon you use it seems that you might be familiar enough with the situation to provide some answers or maybe provide the means for us to find them. If not, then alright.

I don't think it's a misrepresentation...one just needs to go back and forth between the forums and read what's posted.


What I am calling a misrepresentation is your suggestion that this discussion is no more than bickering and that serious inquiries have not been raised. Because they have.

In either case, I defend bringing up the jhana thing as it's under the umbrella of the thread topic, and a concrete thing that people can listen to, perhaps try, and decide if it's legit or not.


Okay, my only contention is that I would hope that we might be able to stay on the topic that has arisen recently, that is; the core of the Hard Core Dharma's view is being questioned. This is too important of an issue to simply brush aside.


I've said I'm a friend of Kenneth's, not a member of his community. I don't necessarily agree with his views. I've been a student of Bhikkhu Bodhi and Venerable Punnaji amongst other. I would be considered a traditionalist in their lingo. I'm not sure what jargon you refer to me using, but I don't have any idea what they're talking about over there.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:22 pm

Unfortunately, my internet connection's been slowed to snail's pace until the 15th, and I'll download the entirety of the talk then.
Hearing that there are people talking and reporting while apparently in "jhanas" seems to confirm that what is being reported do not relate to the Theravadin definition and experience of jhanas. As per the suttas and the commentarial literature, the development of sammasamadhi is virtually impossible outside of a secluded and silent environment, (noise is a thorn to jhana), and outside the context of maintenance of the precepts. Not only is this a view put forth by foundational literature within this tradition but to counter claims that we're all just a bunch of mushroom people desparately clinging to the words of dead people who lived 2,500 years ago, it is also confirmed by the experience of long-standing practitioners.
Thanks Gary for bringing this talk to our attention. Yet more evidence that what is being promoted as hardcore dharma does not correspond with the theory and practice of Buddha Dhamma.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Alex123 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:26 pm

gsteinb wrote:The question of attainments is virtually unanswerable, as the arguments are circular


Except that it is possible to disprove certain attainments based on certain kind of actions. The higher the attainment the stronger certain key sign are.

According to the suttas there are certain things an Arahant cannot transgress. If one transgresses them, then one cannot be an Arahant by definition. Not according to Buddha, anyway.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5569&p=87275#p87275
Last edited by Alex123 on Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:29 pm

Yes, but that's where the argument digresses into "you take the suttas too literally" <> "you can't have those attainments because you don't match up to what the suttas say."

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Alex123 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:32 pm

gsteinb wrote:Yes, but that's where the argument digresses into "you take the suttas too literally" <> "you can't have those attainments because you don't match up to what the suttas say."



Then one isn't even a stream-enterer because no stream enterer dismiss or criticize the Dhamma or the Buddha's style of teaching it.

There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.'

"He/she is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma: 'The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by Alex123 on Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:33 pm

ok

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Alex123 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:37 pm

The Buddha was clear that

[7] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on aversion.
[8] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on fear.
[9] It is impossible for a monk whose mental fermentations are ended to follow a bias based on delusion.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Note the "impossible" part. If the Buddha has said X, then I believe that He really meant X and not not-X.

So it is not the case that He is being vague. In this case He is being very precise. An Arahant cannot follow a bias based on aversion, fear and delusion.
"dust to dust...."

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby owenbecker » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:37 pm

Hey Everybody,
I'm Owen, one of the guys on the recording. One of my friends pointed your site out to me and I've seen a lot of questions on here lately about KFD. You guys are welcome to come over to KFD and ask questions. We hope to be a resource for anybody who wants to practice.
Metta,
-o

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Alex123 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:43 pm

Hello Owen,

owenbecker wrote:Hey Everybody,
I'm Owen, one of the guys on the recording. One of my friends pointed your site out to me and I've seen a lot of questions on here lately about KFD. You guys are welcome to come over to KFD and ask questions. We hope to be a resource for anybody who wants to practice.
Metta,
-o


Could you please reply to sutta quotes that I've posted
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5569&p=87275#p87275

If someone doesn't Believe what the Buddha has said, or s/he doesn't believe the suttas, or doesn't have confidence in aryan-sangha, these are give away signs that one is not even a stream-enterer. SN55.30 and many other suttas.
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