Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby manas » Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:36 pm

(My post related to absorbtion practice, was off-topic, so I've deleted it (is there a quick and easy 'delete button' as I can't see one anywhere)?
Last edited by manas on Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:04 am

Greeting Owen,
owenbecker wrote:Hey Everybody,
I'm Owen, one of the guys on the recording. One of my friends pointed your site out to me and I've seen a lot of questions on here lately about KFD. You guys are welcome to come over to KFD and ask questions. We hope to be a resource for anybody who wants to practice.
Metta,
-o


Welcome to Dhamma Wheel!
Thanks for your kind invite to join discussion over at KFD. Likewise, you and your friends are welcome here and to join in the discussion here regarding all things "hardcore".
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:20 am

Kenshou wrote:. . . let's not swerve the topic to jhana practice.
I do not think we have to worry about that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:28 am

owenbecker wrote: We hope to be a resource for anybody who wants to practice.
Thank you; however, having read the KF account of his practice and the gears business, I do not see much there of interest for me, being just a mushroomie traditionalist type of guy.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:35 am

I must be enlightened acording to ....

sorry I know there is work to do, and I am not going by some unrealistic account in the suttas solely, but my own experience.

the recording is showing no Jhana.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:45 am

Manapa wrote:
the recording is showing no Jhana.
Not by what I can see by my own experience, nor from what I have heard others say when talking about jhana nor by what I have read. It is hard to say what is going on in that recording. Maybe the participants can tell us a bit more than might make it all clear.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:40 am

this was posted by one of the participants on the kfd forum in the thread regarding this audio


Yesterday, 5:46 PM EDT | Post edited: Yesterday, 6:06 PM EDT
I'm posting this link here to give visitors not familiar with certain things an idea on how we, at KFD, see jhanas and certain nanas corresponding.

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/p ... +%C3%91ana

And concerning being able to talk within the jhanas. Something Kenneth has said:

"When we are able to talk from within a jhana, it means we are able to be in that jhana without being absorbed (embedded) in it. This is good when your objective is to awaken because it means we are able to light a lamp while in a very concentrated place, thereby bringing awakening to that jhana. I think of it as accessing various deep places in the mind in order to awaken the sleeping buddhas who are embedded there.

So we are not staying at a superficial level but rather training the mind to be alert and functional in all sorts of states that are often thought of as inherently dysfunctional.

The simile of the radio: When you tune the radio to FM 101.9, you access the station that lives at that frequency. Depending on various factors like the distance from the transmitter, the power and quality of the receiver and its batteries, and the level of distraction, you may be hearing the music "loud and clear" or faintly, through static. There is a continuum of clarity, but in all cases, you are at 101.9. The best part is that with practice you can learn to dial in the radio until it is crystal clear while simultaneously balancing the boom box on your shoulder and dancing hip-hop. It's a skill to be cultivated." Kenneth Folk

Edited to include: Jhanas are hell easy to access, go in and out of and talk in after 2nd path for most yogis. ;)
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:08 pm

{{{sigh}}}
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:20 pm

To toss my doughnut into the basket:

People can live a very convincing simulacrum of high attainment, at least for long periods. But If I wanted to determine if someone was an ariya, Here is my litmus test: I would spend a week or so with him/her. If the suspected ariya woke up in the middle of the night to make a restroom trip, stubbed their pinky toe on the edge of a table, and instead of shouting "G_D_m it! @#$*&%^&!" instead said, "Hmm...what an interesting fruiting of kamma. Ouch." And continued unperturbed about his business, then I would be thoroughly and completely convinced, yes--he is the one.

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Reductor » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:{{{sigh}}}


I concur.. {{sigh}}
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:24 pm

I have not long gone over to see what is said there, and came accross this thread when I searched dhammawheel
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/d ... hammawheel

Ben, started this thread and I don't recall any threads from there being posted, but...

and here aretwo on stream entry, which may provide food for thought on their view of what this attainment is!
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/d ... ightenment

http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/d ... %26cur%3D3
Last edited by Cittasanto on Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:35 pm

Manapa wrote:
and here is one on stream entry, which may provide food for thought on their view of what attainments are!
http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/d ... ightenment
Gotta love those "blips."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Alex123 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:39 pm

I understand the pop idea that "if you set standarts too high, then you will be discouraged and don't try".

But it also has serious drawbacks. If you set standarts too low, then you won't need to work as hard and as long, and the "attainments" will not be the real thing. So one would stop short before reaching significant stage.

Also when setting the bar too low, one would aim too low - where if one were to set the bar as high as possible, one would have to aim higher and attempt to go further.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:52 pm

in case no one realised I have edited my last post!

but tilt what do you mean by blip?

and Alex, I agree, I think there can be discouragement by the standards being high/seem too high, but if you really want to get to the top of Everest getting to the foot is not the full distance, and sometimes thinking you are further than you actually are can be so much better when you arrive at your destination 'early.'
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:10 pm

Manapa wrote:in case no one realised I have edited my last post!

but tilt what do you mean by blip?'


http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/930816#_19_message_363966:
Then when those two characteristics where dwelled on it made perfect sense......dukkha!!!! Non-satisfactoriness /suffering....that is why there is so much suffering...it made so much sense and as soon as that was dwelled on.....there was a sensation of something about to happen...a sensation of being pulled up on the crown slightly and then a moment of something...I refer to it as a conk out but that might be too descriptive...a blip out maybe is better. Then the mind, which is now the calmest it's ever been seems to stall for a second or two. Someone has explained it as feeling like the rebooting of a computer and that is how it feels. A second or two of this and then the mind is kind of back as it was before and then a bliss wave hits you. Initially the bliss wave was intense and had an amazing Wow factor but these days it feels so normal and although it feels very cooling and refreshing for the mind there is no wow factor to it. Very normal and mundane.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:48 pm

cheers missed that, or didn't pay any notice?

tiltbillings wrote:
Manapa wrote:in case no one realised I have edited my last post!

but tilt what do you mean by blip?'


http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/930816#_19_message_363966:
Then when those two characteristics where dwelled on it made perfect sense......dukkha!!!! Non-satisfactoriness /suffering....that is why there is so much suffering...it made so much sense and as soon as that was dwelled on.....there was a sensation of something about to happen...a sensation of being pulled up on the crown slightly and then a moment of something...I refer to it as a conk out but that might be too descriptive...a blip out maybe is better. Then the mind, which is now the calmest it's ever been seems to stall for a second or two. Someone has explained it as feeling like the rebooting of a computer and that is how it feels. A second or two of this and then the mind is kind of back as it was before and then a bliss wave hits you. Initially the bliss wave was intense and had an amazing Wow factor but these days it feels so normal and although it feels very cooling and refreshing for the mind there is no wow factor to it. Very normal and mundane.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:52 pm

Manapa wrote:cheers missed that, or didn't pay any notice?
You most likely had a blip at that very moment when you were reading the thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Manapa wrote:cheers missed that, or didn't pay any notice?
You most likely had a blip at that very moment when you were reading the thread.


sorry! missed that :)
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Dharmakara » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:15 pm

Alex123 wrote:I understand the pop idea that "if you set standarts too high, then you will be discouraged and don't try".

But it also has serious drawbacks. If you set standarts too low, then you won't need to work as hard and as long, and the "attainments" will not be the real thing. So one would stop short before reaching significant stage.

Also when setting the bar too low, one would aim too low - where if one were to set the bar as high as possible, one would have to aim higher and attempt to go further.


It's kind of funny, but there's a quote from the Rule of Saint Benedict which comes to mind, an expression which seems to resonate with the ideal of the Middle Way (majjhima patipada):

"Something for the strong to strive after and nothing to dishearten the weak"
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Clayton » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:16 am

Hey this is Clayton, I was the third voice in that recording. I had quickly risen up to the state which we refer to as the 8th jhana... experiencing neither perception nor non perception. Coming out of it I mentioned it for the recording. We practice something called dynamic jhana which is not as absorbed as the jhana talked about in the suttras. Now I can get much more absorbed than we were, but we just wanted to give everyone a taste of the jhanas or strata of mind.

Clayton

Edit: Ben if you haven't yet listened to the first recording I think your might want to check out the recording we just put up. There are no Technical glitches like there were with the first recording, and there is some discussion afterward of dynamic vrs static jhana. Thank you for your open disposition, I find your posts very well thought out and respectfull...

http://www.divshare.com/download/12560837-2e6
Last edited by Clayton on Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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