Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby nibs » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:39 pm

parth wrote:Nibs Wrote:

Hehe!

Hi Geoff,

I beg to differ. I am all for Buddhist liberation. Us versus them!! Raaaargh!



Dear Nibs,

With all due respect, you may be all for Buddhist liberation but anybody who teaches you anything with these beliefs will not be able to take you anywhere and what sort of liberation are we talking about. Liberation is, liberation from fetters but Mr. Ingram does not seem to have understood that forget practicing it. So where will he lead you or others he manages to mislead, he himself seems to be deluded and seems to have misunderstood the very heart of dhamma.

This certainly is not worth laughing for any serious meditator.

Metta

Parth


Hi Parth,

Personally, I've had little contact with Daniel having only been influenced by his practical guide to the nanas. It kicked started my practice after years of spinning my wheels. Claims and misdiagnosis aside, tell me what is wrong with the rest of the book? You've read it?

Seriously,

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:32 pm

nibs wrote:Personally, I've had little contact with Daniel having only been influenced by his practical guide to the nanas. It kicked started my practice after years of spinning my wheels. Claims and misdiagnosis aside, tell me what is wrong with the rest of the book? You've read it?
Enough of it. As a"misdiagnosis" goes, it could not be worse. Looking elsewhere might not be a bad idea based upon that alone.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby nibs » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
nibs wrote:Personally, I've had little contact with Daniel having only been influenced by his practical guide to the nanas. It kicked started my practice after years of spinning my wheels. Claims and misdiagnosis aside, tell me what is wrong with the rest of the book? You've read it?
Enough of it. As a"misdiagnosis" goes, it could not be worse. Looking elsewhere might not be a bad idea based upon that alone.


Well, that ends the conversation about that then.

Things are changing, tilt. Yogis are not making such big claims these days. There are many yogis seeing he was wrong about the whole arhat thing. But those yogis are still practicing the techniques of meditation that lead to results as talked of by the Buddha. Techniques, I assume, you also are familiar with. If they weren't so effective, they wouldn't be practiced. If you are so upset at such things, delete this big elephant of a thread and we'll leave it at that.

And yeh, each person should decided for themselves through their own practice.

metta,

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Nyana » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:38 pm

nibs wrote:I beg to differ. I am all for Buddhist liberation. Us versus them!! Raaaargh!

Hi Nibs,

I'm not interested in any sort of "us vs. them." Ingram's statements about an arahant still experiencing lust, etc., from the perspective of the suttas, is explicitly demonstrating wrong view. This illustrates a serious lack of understanding of conditioned arising and kamma. And the consequence of wrong view means that he hasn't entered the stream, let alone having any higher realization.

And from a pragmatic perspective, what kind of "liberation" is he and others with similar views offering? It's certainly not Buddhist liberation. And it's completely disingenuous of anyone to maintain what is contrary to the dhamma is actually liberation. There are many teachers out there who teach what is consistent with the dhammavinaya and are therefore far more credible.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Nyana » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:40 pm

nibs wrote:Techniques, I assume, you also are familiar with. If they weren't so effective, they wouldn't be practiced.

The dhamma isn't about "techniques."

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby andre9999 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:41 pm

You don't have to read very far into the book and author to see that he's probably a narcissist. And if you've ever known a real narcissist, you know that the rules don't apply to them. I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.

Morality paves the way to enlightenment. You can't have one without the other, and you don't have to be far down the path to know that.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby nibs » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:12 pm

Ok, no worries guys. No hard feelings. Good luck on your respective paths. Much success, peace and harmony for each of you!

Metta,

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Guy » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:17 am

andre9999 wrote:Morality paves the way to enlightenment. You can't have one without the other, and you don't have to be far down the path to know that.


Well said. I think this summarizes (at least for me) one of the main problems with Ingram's claims. No morality = No Arahant. Case closed.
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2) Throwing things away
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:27 am

andre9999 wrote: I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.


uh, wrong speech much?
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:41 am

gsteinb wrote:
andre9999 wrote: I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.


uh, wrong speech much?

And the English translation of that reply is ?
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Sambodhi in Oz » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:14 pm

Dear Nibs,

You wrote :
There are many yogis seeing he was wrong about the whole arhat thing. But those yogis are still practicing the techniques of meditation that lead to results as talked of by the Buddha.


Please try and understand what Buddha preached was a noble eightfold path comprising of Sila (right speech, right action, right livlihood), samadhi (right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration) and panna (right view, right intention). What Mr. Ingram seems to be practising misses out entirely on sila which essentially is the foundation / roots of the tree called dhamma (what to talk of the other two parts which are probably more subtle). If the foundation itself is bad / weak the tree cannot and will not give the fruits that one wants. This part/ understanding (atleast) should have got corrected at stream entrant stage itself i.e. if he was one.

Yes, what he might be teaching can be parts of samadhi which can be done without a strong sila and make one feel as if he is nearing the path, there are dime a dozen such people, for your own sake dont follow them, especially when you can learn Vipassana from more authentic sources (Goenkaji's / Mahasi Sayadaw method).

Metta

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:38 pm

I'm completely skeptical of Mr. Ingram's claims regarding arahantship, but this is what he says about his training. So I think some of the piling on here is going too far.

"Within the Theravada, my primary influence is the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition of insight meditation from Burma, and I have been given permission to teach by Sayadaw U Pandita, Junior in that lineage. "
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/about.shtml
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby andre9999 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:02 pm

PeterB wrote:
gsteinb wrote:
andre9999 wrote: I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.


uh, wrong speech much?

And the English translation of that reply is ?


It's a (American?) colloquialism meant to display sarcasm. More clearly it would read, "do you use wrong speech much?" pointing out that what I said was wrong speech.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby andre9999 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:12 pm

gsteinb wrote:
andre9999 wrote:I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.


uh, wrong speech much?


Well, the context was that from what I've read it sure seems to me that he may be a narcissist because he doesn't seem to think the rules apply to him. I think he has delusions of grandeur and wants to make sure everyone knows how super enlightened he is, and how no one gets it but him.

Daniel is an extroverted Gen X intellectual. He is known for his pronounced enthusiasm, lip-flapping, grandiosity, eccentricity, and calling people on their stuff and shadow sides regardless of whether or not this is helpful or even accurate. He is an arahat and has a solid mastery of the basic concentration states from the first jhana to Nirodha Samapatti, including the Pure Land Jhanas. He also has a solid knowledge of Buddhist theory and the texts, and because of these three areas of expertise considers himself a qualified teacher.


So you can choose to believe he's as enlightened as The Buddha was - that's your problem, not mine. Any fool can see that an insightful person doesn't speak like that. He just wants you to think he's really important and spiritual.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:36 pm

What is foolish is not to recognize foolishness in oneself but very certain about it in others. On that note, looks like I better go to work. :smile:
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:51 pm

andre9999 wrote:
gsteinb wrote:
andre9999 wrote:I bet that guy will lie, cheat, and steal to make people believe he's an arahant.


uh, wrong speech much?


Well, the context was that from what I've read it sure seems to me that he may be a narcissist because he doesn't seem to think the rules apply to him. I think he has delusions of grandeur and wants to make sure everyone knows how super enlightened he is, and how no one gets it but him.

Daniel is an extroverted Gen X intellectual. He is known for his pronounced enthusiasm, lip-flapping, grandiosity, eccentricity, and calling people on their stuff and shadow sides regardless of whether or not this is helpful or even accurate. He is an arahat and has a solid mastery of the basic concentration states from the first jhana to Nirodha Samapatti, including the Pure Land Jhanas. He also has a solid knowledge of Buddhist theory and the texts, and because of these three areas of expertise considers himself a qualified teacher.


So you can choose to believe he's as enlightened as The Buddha was - that's your problem, not mine. Any fool can see that an insightful person doesn't speak like that. He just wants you to think he's really important and spiritual.


On a forum where Ingram and Folk are routinely criticized for not living up to the suttas it would seem mightily hypocritical to criticize others using blatant wrong speech.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby Ben » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:00 pm

Greetings gsteinb,

gsteinb wrote:On a forum where Ingram and Folk are routinely criticized for not living up to the suttas it would seem mightily hypocritical to criticize others using blatant wrong speech.


If there is a post that you believe requires moderator attention, please hit the 'report' button and fill out the form so that it can be assessed by the mod/admin team.
kind regards

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:05 pm

Greetings gsteinb,

gsteinb wrote:On a forum where Ingram and Folk are routinely criticized for not living up to the suttas it would seem mightily hypocritical to criticize others using blatant wrong speech.

It's not that so much, but "Ingram and Folk" redefine key concepts (e.g. arahant) and in doing so, set themselves up in opposition to how things are defined and explained in the suttas. I don't see anyone criticising them for not actually being arahants - now that would be hypocritical!

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby gsteinb » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:11 am

Ben wrote:Greetings gsteinb,

gsteinb wrote:On a forum where Ingram and Folk are routinely criticized for not living up to the suttas it would seem mightily hypocritical to criticize others using blatant wrong speech.


If there is a post that you believe requires moderator attention, please hit the 'report' button and fill out the form so that it can be assessed by the mod/admin team.
kind regards

Ben


Pointing out something that's unskillful to say doesn't necessarily mean it requires moderator attention.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby darods » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:29 pm

I have just read all 31 pages of this. Was a little mentally draining at times!

I heard Mr Ingram speak on the Buddhist geek podcast. I didn't like what he said and felt he must be wrong. I then read Mr Ingrams book, I didn't have a particularly deep understanding of Buddhism beforehand. By the time I finished it I was converted into believing what he was saying to be true. This caused an effect on my ideas and also what I wanted to achieve.

Later after learning more of the actual Buddha's teachings from the Suttas, I changed my opinion regarding him and realised my belief in his claims was more because I didn't understand the teachings enough.

I am sure he is a skilled meditator, who has gotten to "somewhere". However, it can be seen that it doesn't correspond to what enlightenment is as described by the Pali Canon.

His book , which draws on many other sources does contain good advice on meditation and brings in many excellent works. The problem is that to these good things, he attaches his own teachings and in doing so sort of gives them them some 'backing'.

The conflict in this thread appears to me to be because Mr Ingram and many on the DhO have taken meditation texts, their own interpretation of the teachings, worked very hard at their meditation practise. But the terms we share that are used in the Buddhas teaching does not correspond to what the DhO use. Arahant by the definition of the Pali Canon and many on here, is not the same as what the DhO and Mr Ingram consider it to be. It is just a label they have given to something in their own tradition that they consider based on the Buddhas teachings. So perhaps in a sense Mr Ingram may very well be an Arahant in the DhO tradition.

I do believe that something negative or unskillful has come out of this. Mr Ingram says he has done what he has to help others.
That his message helps people know that it can be done and he has mentioned how he has had many people say how he has helped them. However.. I believe that are many many more, like me who did not have a deep enough understanding of the Buddhas teachings, that were and possibly still are led astray because of his message.

I really hope Mr Ingram changes his style regarding attainments and the analyzing a persons attainments, or at least accepts it is separate to the teachings of the Buddha. I think he can teach many things regarding meditation and as his book shows he can organise existing information into a format that many westerners audience can absorb well.

I causes me sadness to think of people who fall into a situation whereby they consider themselves to achieved something and in doing so distract themselves from continued striving. I hope they get back on track!
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