Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby daverupa » Wed May 28, 2014 9:49 pm

No no, we're looking at things that are solely sensual pleasures.

So, I think they will not, it is not an acceptable offering to an arahant but, if done, it would not be used. This is because there is no engagement with it. So, even apart from not enjoying it while smoking, there will not be any smoking at all.

So, there will not be any sensual-ing at all. There might still be pleasant vedana, e.g. breezes, sunsets, and the like, and it will be these sorts that occur naturally which are not fastened upon.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Unrul3r » Wed May 28, 2014 9:57 pm

daverupa wrote:So, I think they will not, it is not an acceptable offering to an arahant but, if done, it would not be used. This is because there is no engagement with it. So, even apart from not enjoying it while smoking, there will not be any smoking at all.

So, there will not be any sensual-ing at all. There might still be pleasant vedana, e.g. breezes, sunsets, and the like, and it will be these sorts that occur naturally which are not fastened upon.


I agree, but I think he wouldn't even accept it if offered. What use would it have to him? It's not even edible for sustaining the body, which, along with sharing Dhamma, would be his only purpose until his body breaks-up.

Edit: Small correction in wording.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby waterchan » Wed May 28, 2014 9:58 pm

daverupa wrote:. . .

Okay, fair enough. :smile:

What I was getting at is that an arahant would not see a cigarette as something pleasurable. Heck, I don't see it as a sensual pleasure, let alone someone with any degree of ariyaship.

Unrul3r wrote:I agree, but I think he wouldn't even accept it if offered.

Monks do accept all manner of gifts even if they don't need it. It's more about letting the giver rejoice in his dana than the monk finding it useful. Ajahn Chah, widely regarded as an arahant, received at least several million dollars worth of gifts from rich generals in Thailand. It stands to reason he had no personal use for the vast majority of those gifts. Ajahn Brahm said that Ajahn Chah's hut was stark empty except for a mat and cushion.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby daverupa » Wed May 28, 2014 10:01 pm

A poor example, drawn from my own unwholesome experiences, but hopefully the point is made.

:anjali:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed May 28, 2014 10:09 pm

daverupa wrote:A poor example, drawn from my own unwholesome experiences, but hopefully the point is made.

:anjali:


I'm not sure it was made at all. I hope I am not distorting this story due to bad memory, but I'm fairly confident. There was a time when Ajahn Chah smoked and so did the monks in his monastery. When lay people complained that smoking was not seen as wholesome behaviour for a bhikkhu, Ajahn Chah stopped smoking and instructed his monks to stop it as well. I think he was the abbot.

Many, many people regarded Ajahn Chah as an arahat. Even if he wasn't an arahat (at the time of this episode) he was a very, very strict adherent to the vinaya. So these ideals we have about what an arahat is or does is very rigid, imo.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby tiltbillings » Wed May 28, 2014 10:19 pm

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... =80#p48308

    yuuki wrote:In his book, Mr. Ingram states that non-duality models of awakening are "without doubt [his] favorite of them all." As indicated by Mr. Ingram, there aren't specific moral changes in a non-dually awakened person's capabilities (i.e. not being able to lie) or experience (not feeling sensual desire). . . . .

    Mr. Ingram's method of choice is vipassana meditation. I personally am a little hesitant to practice vipassana, because I can't find its source in the suttas and when I consider the method conceptually it seems that it leads precisely to the non-dual awakening mentioned above.
    The late Austrian Hindu scholar and practitioner Agehananda Bharati stated in his book THE LIGHT AT THE CENTER that if you were a stinker before your enlightenment you would be a stinker afterwards, and this is from a man coming from a non-dual tradition. The Theravada and vipassana is not a non-dual tradition, nor is it a pluralistic tradtion.

    Ingram is telling us a lot here. One thing he is telling us is that he disregards the Pali sutta tradition, which characterizes the arahant as one who is morally transformed. Moral transformation is something that is part of the practice leading up to awakening as it is a result of the awakening. He is also telling us that the basis of his “awakening” is not vipassana; rather, it is jhana, of which he claims to be a master.

    Jhana experience has the capacity to mimic what one might think is awakening, the suppression of negative states of mind and jhana can give one “a sort of disassociation from oneself” or a disassociation from those aspects of oneself one finds problematic - a sort of “conversion experience” where one perceives oneself as radically changed. Jhana experience, especially spontaneous jhana experience, has that as a danger. While one, as the result of such an experience (or a cluster of such experiences), may now have a very different view and “understanding” of oneself, the stuff suppressed by the jhana experience(s) can - and will - come back, and thus we get this list:
    Here are a number of bogus myths and falsehoods about arahats, each of which violates one of more of the First Principles in addition to simply being untrue:
    1.Arahats cannot lie.
    2.Arahats cannot have erections or have sex.
    3.Arahats would never do drugs or drink.
    4.Arahats cannot kill anything ever.
    5.Arahats cannot state they are arahats.
    6.Arahats must ordain within 7 days of becomming an arahat in the Buddhist order of monks or they will die.
    7.Arahats cannot think the thought "I am an arahat."
    8.Arahats cannot feel the following emotions: lust, hatred, irritation, restlessness, worry, fear, pride, conceit, desire for the formless realms, desire for the formed realms, or any other "bad" emotion.
    9.Arahats cannot like music or dance.
    10.Arahats love forests.
    11.Arahats cannot have jobs or normal relationships.
    12.Arahats do not really exist today.
    13.Arahats must work hard to maintain their understanding, and it is this that makes them unable to do so many things. http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
    What this list tell us is that while one may imagine oneself awake based upon a profound and supposedly transformative non-dual experience(s), one has to also explain away, in terms of one’s new self-image, all the stuff that comes back after the effects of the jhana/conversion experience(s) wears off.

    Mr. Ingram's method of choice is vipassana meditation.” Any methodology is susceptible to being twisted to meet one’s needs, which is why working with a teacher is important, but even that is no guarantee, which is why understanding that any experience is just another thing of which to let go.

    As for the Mahasi Sayadaw style of practice, please take a look at U Pandita’s THE STATE OF MIND CALLED BEAUTIFUL, and Ven Nyanaponika’s THE POWER OF MINDFULNESS

    I can't find its [vipassana] source in the suttas Do not confuse certain techniques with what is core to the vipassana traditions, which are found in such suttas as the Satipatthana sutta and the Bahiya Sutta and the Kalaka Sutta, and the perception of impermanence should be cultivated for the removal of the conceit 'I am.' For when one perceives impermanence, Meghiya, the perception of not-self is established. When one perceives not-self one reaches the removal of the conceit 'I am,' which is called Nibbana here and now." Ud 37 (4.1)
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Unrul3r » Wed May 28, 2014 10:21 pm

waterchan wrote:Monks do except all manner of gifts even if they don't need it. It's more about letting the giver rejoice in his dana than the monk finding it useful. Ajahn Chah, widely regarded as an arahant, received at least several million dollars worth of gifts from rich generals in Thailand. It stands to reason he had no personal use for the vast majority of those gifts.


Indeed, I've heard this and I would agree depending on the item. But I think an arahat wouldn't accept this kind of gift. It doesn't generate any kind of faith, by the contrary. He also wouldn't accept drugs, women, weapons, etc.

If a statue or another neutral gift is given, I would agree that he could possibly accept it but not gifts approaching harming or sensuality. I certainly don't believe the Buddha would accept any of these. It just wouldn't generate faith. If I gave this kind of gift to test a monk and one would accept it, I would lose faith in him. I would ask myself, "Why would he accept this kind of item?", "What use does he have for it?". I believe an arahat would be very pragmatic.

Even Ananda when offer a robe refused it because he had no use for it. But to be fair, Ananda probably wasn't an arahat at the time but he would be very knowledgeable on what to accept nonetheless.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. Off to bed, good night to all.

Edit: Small alterations for clarity.
:anjali:
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Alex123 » Wed May 28, 2014 10:28 pm

Reading that list of what Mr. Ingram believes,

I wonder: what would be a difference between a normal person and an Arahant if an arahant seems to behave in the same way as a normal non-Buddhist?
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Denisa » Thu May 29, 2014 12:08 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:This, quoted out of context, is terrible. I have Daniel Ingram's book in PDF format. I used the search function to find the word "crack" and didn't find it used in any way as sugested above. Nor did I find "prostitute".


The currently available book is the third revised edition. We don't know what he revised. His site (http://integrateddaniel.info/book/) says "An older version of the book is also available" but it's a dead end. However even in this edition you can find "stop smoking crack".

Alex123 wrote:Reading that list of what Mr. Ingram believes,

I wonder: what would be a difference between a normal person and an Arahant if an arahant seems to behave in the same way as a normal non-Buddhist?


Exactly! That's the question I had. If what Mr. Ingram says is true then what's the point of becoming an arahant! I'm not even an ariya, I don't even smoke :)

I totally deny them, if they brag about their attainments in public.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Jetavan » Thu May 29, 2014 12:52 am

MCTB is the abbreviation for the title of a book called Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, an Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book by Daniel Ingram.


I suggest that he change the title of his book, so as not to confuse MCTB with MBCT.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu May 29, 2014 1:17 am

Denisa wrote:I totally deny them, if they brag about their attainments in public.


Why?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu May 29, 2014 1:36 am

Denisa wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:This, quoted out of context, is terrible. I have Daniel Ingram's book in PDF format. I used the search function to find the word "crack" and didn't find it used in any way as sugested above. Nor did I find "prostitute".


The currently available book is the third revised edition. We don't know what he revised. His site (http://integrateddaniel.info/book/) says "An older version of the book is also available" but it's a dead end. However even in this edition you can find "stop smoking crack".

Alex123 wrote:Reading that list of what Mr. Ingram believes,

I wonder: what would be a difference between a normal person and an Arahant if an arahant seems to behave in the same way as a normal non-Buddhist?


Exactly! That's the question I had. If what Mr. Ingram says is true then what's the point of becoming an arahant! I'm not even an ariya, I don't even smoke :)

I totally deny them, if they brag about their attainments in public.


I don't know what version you have. Mine, on the crack thing, has the obvious teaching that crack is not good for you _ in short.

Ayya Khema said that her suffering was gone. In context I take it as she meaning that she was an arahat. And she was a bhikkhuni. She also talked openly about jhanas, speaking of her past experience. Dipa Ma said that the sensations correspondent to anger arise in a non returner, although they don't "burn". A non returner is supposed to be done with anger. Dipa Ma, as far as I know, was very respected by Mahasi Sayadaw himself. She was no phony. Unless you want to throw the whole Mahasi meditation style away, you can't dismiss Ingram so easily.

I don't think anybody would ever take him seriously if he literally meant that arahats can have anger and lust, in the same sense of the words we attribute to them. That would make no sense whatsoever. It only makes sense to interpret his opinions in the way I interpret them. If you do interpret them like I explained above, you'll see that it's not that much big of a step to understand the more contentious points in the infamous list.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 29, 2014 2:29 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
I don't think anybody would ever take him seriously if he literally meant that arahats can have anger and lust, in the same sense of the words we attribute to them. That would make no sense whatsoever. It only makes sense to interpret his opinions in the way I interpret them. If you do interpret them like I explained above, you'll see that it's not that much big of a step to understand the more contentious points in the infamous list.
Oh, so arahants have special arahant anger and special arahant lust. That clears it all up.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby tiltbillings » Thu May 29, 2014 2:41 am

Modus.Ponens wrote: Unless you want to throw the whole Mahasi meditation style away, you can't dismiss Ingram so easily.
I have no problem with dismissing Ingram's non-dual interpretation of the Mahasi Sayadaw practice for the reasons I carefully outlined in this msg and my comments that follow it. There are simply better teachers of Burmese vipassana out there.

As for Dipa Ma, please cite your reference to her statement.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby manas » Thu May 29, 2014 3:15 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:I don't think anybody would ever take him seriously if he literally meant that arahats can have anger and lust, in the same sense of the words we attribute to them. That would make no sense whatsoever. It only makes sense to interpret his opinions in the way I interpret them. If you do interpret them like I explained above, you'll see that it's not that much big of a step to understand the more contentious points in the infamous list.


Hi Modus,

I thought that emotions such as anger and lust simply no longer arise in an arahant, as their roots have been destroyed...so it's not that 'they arise but one does not attach to them at all', but rather, that they just don't arise anymore, period...isn't that it? The Buddha was pretty clear about that, where is the need for 'interpretation'? And surely that's the true & deep kind of peace & freedom we are all striving for?

kind regards
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Denisa » Thu May 29, 2014 3:54 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Denisa wrote:I totally deny them, if they brag about their attainments in public.


Why?

This is from the first page of this thread:
David N. Snyder wrote:
Ben wrote:
It seems to me, through my own inconsequential experience, but also the experiences of other people who have walked on the path, is that humility seems to be a bi-product of progress.

I agree. I think the reason the Buddha mentions that he is fully awakened is because the Dhamma had died-out and he was restoring the Dhamma. But now we are in his dispensation and there is no need to announce attainments and in fact I am sure those with attainments would not have an interest in proclaiming their status either.


tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:
I don't think anybody would ever take him seriously if he literally meant that arahats can have anger and lust, in the same sense of the words we attribute to them. That would make no sense whatsoever. It only makes sense to interpret his opinions in the way I interpret them. If you do interpret them like I explained above, you'll see that it's not that much big of a step to understand the more contentious points in the infamous list.
Oh, so arahants have special arahant anger and special arahant lust. That clears it all up.


tilt, some tantric masters say intercourse helped them towards higher awakenings. Why, I wonder, Buddha never revealed this path of "lust"!

Mkoll wrote:
waterchan wrote:
...Daniel M. Ingram, an American student of Sayādaw U Paṇdita of Myanmar...

He also had been authorized and encouraged to teach Mahāsi method by his teachers.


I strongly doubt the authenticity of both credentials. You can technically call yourself a student of Sayadaw Whoever if you've taken a class or two under him. And I highly doubt that Mahasi Sayadaw himself would have approved of Mr. Ingram as a teacher of the Mahasi method.

I could see it being true. Maybe he was more "normal" back then. Then he got the endorsement. And some time later, well . . . look at this thread! :jumping:


I second that. I have a friend who practiced under Sayadaw U pandita in Burma about two decades ago. After about a week of intensive vipassana, my friend asked the Sayadaw how long will it take to become an Ariya. Since my friend was progressing well in vipassana knowledges, Sayadaw told, "one month." My friend said it was very normal in that vipassana circle to get an Ariya endorsement and also encouragement to teach if you reach next Ariyahood.

This is from the page 337 of Mr. Ingram's book (3rd edition).

A friend of mine was on a retreat in Burma and had attained to second path as confirmed by U Pandita. He was finally done with his retreat and was taken to the airport by one of the people who helped to run the monastery, who incidentally was a stream enterer. As my friend was leaving, he yelled to him across the terminal, “Come back for number three!” meaning, “Come back and attain third path!” Note the many ways in which what underlies this statement differs from the paradigm you would likely find in your basic Western Buddhist.
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu May 29, 2014 7:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:I don't think anybody would ever take him seriously if he literally meant that arahats can have anger and lust, in the same sense of the words we attribute to them. That would make no sense whatsoever. It only makes sense to interpret his opinions in the way I interpret them. If you do interpret them like I explained above, you'll see that it's not that much big of a step to understand the more contentious points in the infamous list.
Oh, so arahants have special arahant anger and special arahant lust. That clears it all up.


I have no problem with dismissing Ingram's non-dual interpretation of the Mahasi Sayadaw practice for the reasons I carefully outlined in this msg and my comments that follow it. There are simply better teachers of Burmese vipassana out there.

As for Dipa Ma, please cite your reference to her statement.



I've tried to answer both of these questions before. If you read the posts and still don't agree with my interpretation consider this: when an arahat remembers being angry in the past or, if he has psychic powers, he "reads the mind" of an angry person, what sensation arises in him due to mind contact? I think it's reasonable to answer this question with: the arahat experiences the vedana correspondent to anger, but is not in any way perturbed by it. There's nothing unreasonable in this line of thought, wrong as it may be. And this line of thought could be different than what Ingram is saying.

As for Dipa Ma here are the relevant quotes from an interview published by tricycle magazine http://www.tricycle.com/interview/enlig ... n?page=0,3


Sense-desire comes up a lot in people’s practice. Does it come up for you still? It is important to distinguish between sense-pleasure and sense-desire. There is nothing wrong with sense-pleasure. Pleasure and pain are part of our human experience. Sense-desire, on the other hand, is the grasping at pleasure or the avoidance of pain. This is what creates suffering—grasping and avoidance. Sense-desire comes up for everyone. It came up for me, too. When it arose, I knew it—and that’s the way to overcome it. I don’t feel sense-desire anymore. Sense-desire and anger don’t go away after First Path. They are weakened after Second Path and completely go away after Third Path.

Do you experience anger at all?
As soon as it comes, at the very start, I’m aware of it. It doesn’t get any nourishment.

What do you do when you begin to feel irritation or anger? Anger is a fire, but I don’t feel any heat. It comes and dies right out.


On morality:

Do you still find yourself acting against the precepts sometimes? After First Path, I found I couldn’t intentionally do something which grossly violated the Five Precepts [the precepts lay practitioners agree to follow: to refrain from lying, stealing, improper sexual conduct, killing, and taking intoxicants]. If I did, it was usually a reflex action out of habit. I knew it right away, and I acknowledged it and asked forgiveness. After Second Path, right action became second nature. It seems natural to me now.

On her (probably) being a non returner (and on how people who are aryas can talk about it):

What happened this time? I completed the first course of practice [i.e., experienced enlightenment or “First Path” in Theravada practice]. It took about six days. After three months, I returned to the center at Munindraji’s urging to practice for Second Path. This time it took about five days. [J.E.: In accordance with Theravada custom, Munindraji stopped me from asking Dipa Ma about her practice for Third Path. She later told me it isn’t talked about because very few people reach it.]

Now, the big IF in this whole quotation is my assumption that Munindraji stopped her from speaking of the third path because he knew that Dipa Ma had attained it, and speaking of it draws negative atention. It is the obvious inference to make but, nevertheless, not a bullet proof one.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Mkoll » Thu May 29, 2014 7:50 am

Unrul3r wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:How come actual arahants never participate in threads like this?

They don't engage in wrong speech.

:tongue:


Since when is Dhamma talk wrong speech?


Ahem...


"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."

— SN 56.9
Peace,
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Unrul3r » Thu May 29, 2014 7:57 am

Mkoll wrote:
Ahem...


"Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!'

"Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish."

— SN 56.9


Well, none of that was said, nor any kind of anger was showed, at least on my part.

May you be well.
:anjali:
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Re: Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainmen

Postby Mkoll » Thu May 29, 2014 8:01 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:It only makes sense to interpret his opinions in the way I interpret them.


Did you really just say that? Am I reading that right?

:toilet:

~~~

Does it make sense to have the opinion that his opinions make no sense?

:tongue:
Peace,
James
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