Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

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Satori
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Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Satori » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:54 pm

Some people have said this, that Buddha taught that all suffering is caused by craving.

But a Zen Buddhist, Tich Naht Hanh , said that other things can cause suffering too , like wrong views, ignorance, etc. But craving is on top of the whole list, but is sometimes regarded as the whole list. This, is a misunderstanding he says.

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby bodom » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:09 pm

According to the Maha-satipatthana Sutta yes. Craving is the origin of suffering.

What, now, is the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering? It is craving, which gives rise to fresh rebirth, and, bound up with pleasure and lust, now here, now there, finds ever-fresh delight. - DN 22


:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Satori » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:15 pm

All suffering?

He says that to make the sutras shorter and therefore easier to memorize, the first item on a list was often used to represent the whole list.

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:52 pm

I'm not sure if it is useful to argue about exactly which causes what, and which list one should use, since there are different lists in different Suttas. Certainly the standard Four Noble Truths exposition is that craving causes dukkha.

The standard dependent-origination sequence expands on this:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... #dependent
"And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

So, one might argue that ignorance is the root of all dukkha...

Mike

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:52 am

Greetings,

mikenz66 wrote:So, one might argue that ignorance is the root of all dukkha...

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:50 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Adriano was Element

Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Adriano was Element » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:00 am

In his first sermon, on the four noble truths, which was 'introductory level', the Buddha taught all suffering is caused by craving.

At later times, in the dependent origination, the the Buddha taught, ultimately, all suffering is caused by ignorance.

Ignorance is the cause of craving. Both ignorance and craving are causes or conditions contributing to suffering.

All suffering is caused by craving because there is no suffering without craving, just as there is no suffering without ignorance.

But all ignorance does not necessarily result in suffering but most of the time craving results in suffering.

Like if my mind is spaced out or zombied out, ignorance is present but craving is not present.

The zombie mind, although not enlightened and full of ignorance, is not necessarily suffering.

But for a mind immersed in craving, suffering will generally be the result.

Generally, only small subtle arisings of craving, caught by mindfulness & clear comprehension, can escape the manifesting of suffering.

So all suffering has both ignorance and craving as supporting conditions.

But not all ignorance will result in suffering but generally all craving will result in suffering.

:thinking:
Last edited by Adriano was Element on Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:16 am

So, one might argue that ignorance is the root of all dukkha...


Hi Mike

You could make that argument, but as you know the 12 links are not linear.

"This samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. - SN 15.13


This sutta quotation shows that where there is ignorance there is craving and where there is craving there is ignorance. It would seem the origin of Suffering stems from both.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:20 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Adriano was Element

Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Adriano was Element » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:22 am

bodom wrote:This sutta quotation shows that where there is ignorance there is craving and where there is craving there is ignorance.

Not necessarily.

The sutta shows where there is wandering [monkey mind] in samsara, there is both ignorance & craving. That is all.

:pig:
Last edited by Adriano was Element on Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bodom
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:26 am

Adriano wrote:
bodom wrote:This sutta quotation shows that where there is ignorance there is craving and where there is craving there is ignorance.

Not necessarily.

The sutta shows where there is wandering [monkey mind] in samsara, there is both ignorance & craving. That is all.

:pig:


Ok, so we are here now, the real question is, what do we do about it?

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

Adriano was Element

Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Adriano was Element » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:31 am

bodom wrote:Ok, so we are here now, the real question is, what do we do about it?

Nothing.

What we do about it is not the topic of discussion.

What we should do about it is simply acknowledge we misinterpreted a sutta. That is all.

However, the sutta itself is quite apt. It clearly describes how both craving & ignorance together are causes of suffering.

:smile:

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby bodom » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:35 am

However, the sutta itself is quite apt. It clearly describes how both craving & ignorance together are causes of suffering.


Right. That is why I posted it.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:37 am

Greetings Adriano,

Adriano wrote:Like if my mind is spaced out or zombied out, ignorance is present but craving is not present.

The zombie mind, although not enlightened and full of ignorance, is not necessarily suffering.

Not necessarily suffering per se, but it is dukkha (which isn't just pain or suffering, but also includes aspects such as unsatisfactoriness and unreliability), since it is anatta and anicca.

Even experiencing a nice surf on a sunny day is dukkha on this basis.

Sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe sankhara dukkha, sabbe dhamma anatta.

It is 'being' which is dukkha, but we need to be careful in understanding what being means in the Dhamma.

SN 23.2: Satta Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles: as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.

"You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness — for the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding."

The above desire arises due to avijja (ignorance).

As you say, the 4NT explain the causes of dukkha in brief, and dependent origination explain the causes of dukkha in detail.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

Adriano was Element

Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Adriano was Element » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:43 am

bodom wrote:...but as you know the 12 links are not linear...

Are you sure? Where did the Buddha teach the 12 links in a non-linear manner, not placing ignorance first?

Allow me ask you some questions:

1. If craving ends, that is, non-manifesting, such as when my mind dwells in Zombie Mind, will ignorance extinguish?

2. Alternatively, if ignorance extinguishes, will craving extinguish?

Certainly the 12 links are linear because ending ignorance ends craving but ending craving does not necessarily end ignorance.

:alien:

Adriano was Element

Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Adriano was Element » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:Not necessarily suffering per se, but it is dukkha (which isn't just pain or suffering, but also includes aspects such as unsatisfactoriness and unreliability), since it is anatta and anicca.

Not sure about this. You may possibly be mixing up the universal characteristic of dukkha with the mental experience of dukkha.

I figure when the Buddha said clinging to the five aggregates is dukkha, this is different to when he said the five aggregates are anicca, dukkha & anatta.

Like a rock is dukkha but I reckon a rock probably does not experience dukkha.

:shrug:

Adriano was Element

Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Adriano was Element » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:Even experiencing a nice surf on a sunny day is dukkha on this basis.

Psychologically, experiencing a nice surf on a sunny day is dukkha because the body & mind are disturbed & agitated. That is why many surfies have other addictions. Some of the world's greatest surfers in history became drug addicts and even psychiatrically ill, such as Michael Peterson, Keith Paul, Jeff Hackman, Buttons Kaluhiokalani, Matt Archbold, just to name a handful.

It is the same as dwelling in jhana. A mind that has clear vision (like Sariputta) discerns rapture & happiness are actually disturbing. Rapture & happiness are actually agitating and there is something better, an escape beyond, that is, Nibbana.

But spacing out in Zombie Mind, is something quite different. Zombie Mind, unlike Surfie Mind, is relatively free from craving but replete with ignorance.

Image :shrug: :alien:
Last edited by Adriano was Element on Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:12 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:58 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:03 am

Adriano was Element
Just a reminder this person is a serial troll - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=812

Image

And now back to the subject.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Satori » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:22 am

Well , if Buddhists believe that things happen because of causes and conditions , then craving alone cannot be solely responsible for suffering.

BTW, do Buddhists include physical pain as a form of suffering? A woman, said that pain is suffering only by the way we react to it and that if we react to it in a wholesome way its not suffering. But in the English language , the word suffering can be applied to physical problems, for example: She is suffering from cancer, or he is suffering from stomach pain, etc. Most people in the West would class this as a form of suffering. Would Buddhists not? Is it because no word is a satisfactory translation in English?


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