Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:25 am

Satori wrote:Some people have said this, that Buddha taught that all suffering is caused by craving.

But a Zen Buddhist, Tich Naht Hanh , said that other things can cause suffering too , like wrong views, ignorance, etc. But craving is on top of the whole list, but is sometimes regarded as the whole list. This, is a misunderstanding he says.


My understanding is based on the Noble Truths, the second of which says that suffering arises in dependence on craving ( or attachment to desire ).
I regard dependent origination as an elaboration of the second Noble Truth, where it appears that ignorance is the "root" cause of sufffering.

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:14 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:02 pm

Hi all,

My understanding is that dukkha is contingent upon craving. Craving is the ingredient which we can influence. Without this ingredient the resulting recipe will not be dukkha. This is not the same as saying that craving causes dukkha. There are other ingredients necessary which we do not have clear control over. Causation is a mysterious concept.


Metta

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"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:08 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:01 pm

Hanzze wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:Hi all,

My understanding is that dukkha is contingent upon craving. Craving is the ingredient which we can influence. Without this ingredient the resulting recipe will not be dukkha. This is not the same as saying that craving causes dukkha. There are other ingredients necessary which we do not have clear control over. Causation is a mysterious concept.


Metta

Gabe

Can you interpret your interesting view a little bit more in detail? Please


Hello Hanzze,

Lets say we figure out that there are three things which must happen before we get what we want. Each of those three things has its own set of things which must also happen before they can come about. If we continue to ponder things in this way it becomes clear that we cannot possibly find the "cause" in any one event. We may end up getting what we want but it helps to understand that what we want is largely outside of our control. There is one exception to this. What we want could be to clearly know what is and what is not within our sphere of influence. That way our desire becomes aligned with reality. When our desire is aligned with what actually is then we do not experience dukkha.

I thought what I said before was pretty straight forward so I feel that this post is probably just muddying the water.

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:27 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:05 pm

Hi Satori,
Satori wrote:Well , if Buddhists believe that things happen because of causes and conditions , then craving alone cannot be solely responsible for suffering.

In general there are multiple causes and conditions. A key question is whether a cause is necessary, in which case, if it is removed then the result does not occur.
Satori wrote:BTW, do Buddhists include physical pain as a form of suffering? A woman, said that pain is suffering only by the way we react to it and that if we react to it in a wholesome way its not suffering. But in the English language , the word suffering can be applied to physical problems, for example: She is suffering from cancer, or he is suffering from stomach pain, etc. Most people in the West would class this as a form of suffering. Would Buddhists not? Is it because no word is a satisfactory translation in English?


Dukkha is used in a variety of ways in the Suttas. This dictionary can be useful:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... htm#dukkha
Dukkha: 1 'pain', painful feeling, which may be bodily and mental see: vedanā

2 'Suffering', 'ill'. As the first of the Four Noble Truths see: sacca and the second of the three characteristics of existence see: ti-lakkhana the term dukkha is not limited to painful experience as under 1, but refers to the unsatisfactory nature and the general insecurity of all conditioned phenomena which, on account of their impermanence, are all liable to suffering, and this includes also pleasurable experience. Hence 'unsatisfactoriness' or 'liability to suffering' would be more adequate renderings, if not for stylistic reasons. Hence the first truth does not deny the existence of pleasurable experience, as is sometimes wrongly assumed. This is illustrated by the following texts:

;Seeking satisfaction in the world, Bhikkhus, I had pursued my way. That satisfaction in the world I found. In so far as satisfaction existed in the world, I have well perceived it by understanding. Seeking for misery in the world, Bhikkhus, I had pursued my way. That misery in the world I found. In so far as misery existed in the world, I have well perceived it by understanding. Seeking for the escape from the world, Bhikkhus, I had pursued my way. That escape from the world I found. In so far as an escape from the world existed, I have well perceived it by understanding; A. 111, 101.

;If there were no satisfaction to be found in the world, beings would not be attached to the world. If there were no misery to be found in the world, beings would not be repelled by the world. If there were no escape from the world, beings could not escape therefrom; A. 111, 102.

See dukkhatā For texts on the Truth of Suffering, see W. of B. and 'path'.


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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:05 pm

Hanzze wrote:I can not agree with that. The solution here would be satisfaction. There are many who are walking that way because it is satisfaction. As it is not lasting it will cause suffering sooner or later. How did you come to this idea?


I am sorry Hanzze. I don't understand what you are saying here. It appears that English is not your first language so it may be hard for us. What do you say satisfaction is the solution to? And what is it that you say is not lasting? I come to my understanding through study and practice of the Dhamma. I do not claim that my understanding is in any way perfect. I give my understanding in order to create an atmosphere of mutual clarification. This includes an open invitation to critical review.

Metta


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"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 7:25 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:27 pm

Hanzze wrote:Satisfaction would be the solution of ending suffering. - resumed from your post
Satisfaction is not lasting and therefore it causes suffering again.



I never said anything about satisfaction.

However, my understanding of the the teaching of the Buddha is this. By following the path one begins to see more clearly the goal. My understanding of the goal is knowledge and vision of unlimited compassion, Joy, caring, and equanimity. My understanding is that the arising of this goal is not different than the awareness of reality as it is. This awareness is cultivated through an ever deepening perception of what is and what is not within our control until there is no need for any speculation. One might call this the perfection of ethical sensitivity towards oneself and others. I expect a certain degree of satisfaction is concurrent.

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:33 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:43 pm

Hanzze wrote:You did not, that was my conclusion of
gabrielbranbury wrote:When our desire is aligned with what actually is then we do not experience dukkha.
and maybe the reason why other tradition do not practice insight meditation.



Why would you say that?

Insight meditation is a very effective way to see how reality arises. How would we align our desire with actuality if we didn't cultivate insight into actuality?
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:55 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:02 pm

Hanzze wrote:Why would you say that?

Insight meditation is a very effective way to see how reality arises. How would we align our desire with actuality if we didn't cultivate insight into actuality?
Yes it is! With satisfying, if my conclusion was right. What is different from my personal view, with is that there is only carving causing suffering.


I dont follow what you are asking. Please rephrase.

Thanks

Gabe
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:38 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:18 pm

Hanzze wrote:
Gabe

You told that suffering has more than only craving as cause. To justify that you told "There are other ingredients necessary which we do not have clear control over. Causation is a mysterious concept. " after my request you told "When our desire is aligned with what actually is then we do not experience dukkha."

To be resistant of suffering there would be only satisfaction be the problem as satisfaction is "the perfect alignment of desire in the very moment". As satisfaction is not lasting I saw it as not agree able for me.[/quote]

I did not use the term "Cause". For example a necessary ingredient for dhukka is a being who is aware. Another one is change. If things did not change then there would be no dhukka. These are not causes but contingent aspects of dhukka. Please let me know if you dont know what "contingent" means. I must repeat that I said nothing about satisfaction. It is an important distinction that what "actually is" is not the same as what "we think things actually are". Normal "satisfaction" is with things as we unenlightened folk think think or feel they are.

I hope I am getting my point across.

Metta

Gabe
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:34 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Alex123 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:17 am

According to Buddhism, even bare fact of having a body and 6 senses is dukkha. Even Arhats experienced dukkha, they just experienced physical pain - not emotional one. 5 Aggregates are dukkha (SN26.10)

Ultimately ALL things that are felt are dukkha



“Whether it be pleasant or painful, Along with the neither-painful-nor-pleasant, Both the internal and the external, Whatever kind of feeling there is: Having known, This is suffering (dukkhanti), Perishable, disintegrating, Having touched and touched them, seeing their fall, Thus one loses one's passion for them” SN36.2(2)

"Pleasant feeling, bhikkhus, should be seen as painful;"
Sukhā, bhikkhave, vedanā dukkhato daṭṭhabbā -SN 36.5(5)


"Whatever is felt is included in suffering." yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmi’nti
SN 36.11(1)

Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti , All formations are stressful. Dhp 278

'Pleasant' with regard to the stressful is a perversion of perception, a perversion of mind, a perversion of view.

'Stressful' with regard to the stressful is a non-perversion of perception, a non-perversion of mind, a non-perversion of view.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

“Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of form … of feeling … of perception … of volitional constructions … of consciousness is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. “The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of form … of consciousness is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death.” SN26.10 Ven. BB Trans.


”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:54 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:20 am

Alex123 wrote:According to Buddhism, even bare fact of having a body and 6 senses is dukkha. Even Arhats experienced dukkha, they just experienced physical pain - not emotional one. 5 Aggregates are dukkha (SN26.10)



I don't think that physical pain is dukkha post-enlightenment. Enlightenment is complete liberation from dukkha.

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