Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

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Hanzze
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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Hanzze » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:48 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Prasadachitta » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:17 pm

Hanzze wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:I did not use the term "Cause". For example a necessary ingredient for dhukka is a being who is aware. Another one is change. If things did not change then there would be no dhukka. These are not causes but contingent aspects of dhukka. Please let me know if you dont know what "contingent" means. I must repeat that I said nothing about satisfaction. It is an important distinction that what "actually is" is not the same as what "we think things actually are". Normal "satisfaction" is with things as we unenlightened folk think think or feel they are.

I hope I am getting my point across.

Metta

Gabe

Thanks for your patient! What are the other contingents of dukkha as carving is only one of it?




I already listed a few in my last post. I cant say I know what all of them are but here are some traditional ones....
...
Ignorance
Birth
Consciousness
Feeling
Contact...

To name a few

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Satori » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:10 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Alex123 wrote:According to Buddhism, even bare fact of having a body and 6 senses is dukkha. Even Arhats experienced dukkha, they just experienced physical pain - not emotional one. 5 Aggregates are dukkha (SN26.10)



I don't think that physical pain is dukkha post-enlightenment. Enlightenment is complete liberation from dukkha.

Spiny


I have trouble with the idea that physical pain could be caused by craving. But I have never eliminated all my cravings, so I can't be sure.

Did not the Lord Buddha say that death and illness is a form of suffering , if so , as he died, isn't he still subject to suffering, if we accept death as a form of suffering, as most would.

But maybe the Buddha knew a way to block out pain.

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:13 pm

Satori wrote:
But maybe the Buddha knew a way to block out pain.
The issue is not so much the pain itself; it is the relationship that arises in response to pain based upon insight.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Satori » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:20 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Satori wrote:
But maybe the Buddha knew a way to block out pain.
The issue is not so much the pain itself; it is the relationship that arises in response to pain based upon insight.


Sir ,I may not have understood you. Are you saying pain itself is not suffering but our response to it is?

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Oct 10, 2010 5:22 pm

Satori wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Satori wrote:
But maybe the Buddha knew a way to block out pain.
The issue is not so much the pain itself; it is the relationship that arises in response to pain based upon insight.


Sir ,I may not have understood you. Are you saying pain itself is not suffering but our response to it is?
I am saying dukkha is a respnse to pain.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:54 am

Hanzze wrote:
Alex123 wrote:According to Buddhism, even bare fact of having a body and 6 senses is dukkha. Even Arhats experienced dukkha, they just experienced physical pain - not emotional one. 5 Aggregates are dukkha (SN26.10)

Ultimately ALL things that are felt are dukkha


and what is the cause of dukkha?


akusala kammavipāka, which is ultimately due to past Avijjā.

However there can be physical pain for an Arahant because there is still a body. An Arahant doesn't emotionally suffer, but bare physical dukkha-vedanā is still there. It is sheer delusion to think that there is some corner in the universe where there isn't dukkha of some sort, even for an Arahant. The Buddha physically suffered, that is the nature of this sack of meat, bones, excrement and urine. Any kind of existence isn't worth it, it is just more dukkha of one or the other kind.
"dust to dust...."

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:06 am

Hi Alex,
Alex123 wrote:It is sheer delusion to think that there is some corner in the universe where there isn't dukkha of some sort, even for an Arahant.

Actually, I don't think that is quite true. The arahant encounters unpleasant sensation but there is no suffering associated with the sensation. Our suffering is our habituated response to the phenomenology of experience.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:11 am

Ben wrote:Hi Alex,
Alex123 wrote:It is sheer delusion to think that there is some corner in the universe where there isn't dukkha of some sort, even for an Arahant.

Actually, I don't think that is quite true. The arahant encounters unpleasant sensation but there is no suffering associated with the sensation. Our suffering is our habituated response to the phenomenology of experience.
kind regards

Ben


An Arahant can still experience painful bodily feelings. Buddha himself has undergone a lot of physical pain in his last days (DN16). Buddha himself was on some occasions very sick. So dukkha as physical pain does exist even for them. There isn't dukkha of mental/emotional reaction. Ultimately all existence is greater or less dukkha.


"Whatever is felt is included in suffering." yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmi’nti - SN 36.11(1)

All formations are stressful. Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti , Dhp 278


“Whether it be pleasant or painful, Along with the neither-painful-nor-pleasant, Both the internal and the external, Whatever kind of feeling there is: Having known, This is suffering (dukkhanti), Perishable, disintegrating, Having touched and touched them, seeing their fall, Thus one loses one's passion for them” SN36.2(2)
"dust to dust...."

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Ben » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:19 am

Indeed, but in those discourses, was the Buddha addressing arahants?
pain is not dukkha, Alex, unless one is not enlightened.
If one is a putthujana, the tendency is to identify with the painful sensation and react with aversion.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby nowheat » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:44 am

Dukkha has its source in the contingent nature of all things, including our "selves" which are contingent and therefore impermanent and therefore unsatisfactory (dukkha). It is craving for things to be permanent that causes the problem. If we didn't crave then there'd be no dukkha. How can we stop craving? By ending ignorance. Ignorance of what? Of the four noble truths and the first two are that there is dukkha, that dukkha has a source which is craving. When we understand how we cause our own suffering by craving, when we understand how it happens by craving things that are impermanent, when we really see this, craving comes to an end. Craving is the cause of our suffering and it is ended by ending ignorance; ignorance is the cause of our suffering. They are one and the same.

It's not *really* about craving for material goods, isn't it? It's craving for our relationship to things to be satisfying, to stay within our control, for impermanence to not affect them. It's larger than material goods. One can have material goods as long as we aren't craving them. (Kinda hard, I know.)

:namaste:

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Goedert » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:47 am

The Buddha said that all the suffering and purification is caused by oneself and just self alone.

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:51 am

Greetings,

Alex123 wrote:All formations are stressful. Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti , Dhp 278

Right, and since for the arahant (as per SN 12.15) "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of sankharas".... ignorance ceases, and sankharas cease in turn. Therefore, no suffering.

Arahants are cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Sylvester » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:24 am

retrofuturist wrote:Arahants are cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)


May I venture to say that "Arahants are cooled" as well?

:anjali:

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:25 am

Greetings Sylvester,

It warms the heart to see that sometimes my puns hit the mark.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Satori » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:42 am

Goedert wrote:The Buddha said that all the suffering and purification is caused by oneself and just self alone.


If it depends on us alone , why did the Buddha bother teaching and preaching? It seems strange he said that , if he believes there is no-self.

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:44 am

Satori wrote:
Goedert wrote:The Buddha said that all the suffering and purification is caused by oneself and just self alone.


If it depends on us alone , why did the Buddha bother teaching and preaching? It seems strange he said that , if he believes there is no-self.
Why?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby Satori » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:49 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Satori wrote:
Goedert wrote:The Buddha said that all the suffering and purification is caused by oneself and just self alone.


If it depends on us alone , why did the Buddha bother teaching and preaching? It seems strange he said that , if he believes there is no-self.
Why?


If there is no seperate self , how can our thoughts, beliefs and actions be ours alone. If we are conditioned beings,then surely we are affected by others around us an our environemnt?

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:53 am

Satori wrote:
If there is no seperate self , how can our thoughts, beliefs and actions be ours alone. If we are conditioned beings,then surely we are affected by others around us an our environemnt?
And?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Did the Buddha say all suffering is caused by craving?

Postby nowheat » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:39 pm

nowheat wrote: Craving is the cause of our suffering and it is ended by ending ignorance; ignorance is the cause of our suffering. They are one and the same.

I misworded that conclusion. Ignorance and craving aren't the same they are just two halves of a whole. To end craving you have to understand what ignorance consists of, to end ignorance you have to understand what craving does (causes suffering).

:namaste:


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