something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Nyana » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:25 am

5heaps wrote:i am suggesting that you should present your position in a graded manner that makes sense and is of use to ppl.

The Pāḷi dhamma is a complete system of gradual training. It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby alan » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:33 am

Nana;
Or you could think about your posts, and use words that the audience might understand.
A basic question is this: to whom am I talking? Do they understand what I'm saying?
If you don't craft responses to the audience, then what are you doing?
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Ben » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:44 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
5heaps wrote:i am suggesting that you should present your position in a graded manner that makes sense and is of use to ppl.

The Pāḷi dhamma is a complete system of gradual training. It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.

Well said, Geoff!
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby 5heaps » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ah, so you plainly expose your bias.
i am suggesting that you should present your position in a graded manner that makes sense and is of use to ppl. . . . another cool part of studying the indian tenet system presented by ppl like Bhavaviveka . . . .
Again, you expose you bias annd your willing ignorance. You obviously have no real interest in the Theravada as it understands itself or as Theravadins talk about it, so why are you here?

actually im very interested in how you answer what Buddhagosha says, which is why ive addressed the argument to you several times. its true that i thought Theravada in general posited momentariness in the sense of abiding characteristic natures. its what most of the other Theravadins here believe also. do you say also to them, 'why are you here'?

Theravada accepts characteristic natures? they make up functioning dharmas? if you dont accept that a characteristic nature must abide in order to function, this requires explanation since you contradict Buddhagosha, Vasubhandu, Dharmakirti, etc. if you think that an abiding characteristic nature implies being unchanging then i will repeat the reasoning to prove that it doesnt

Ñāṇa wrote:It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.
because these are wrong or because these are already subsumed in the Pali tradition? or something else?
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Nyana » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:56 am

alan wrote:Nana;
Or you could think about your posts, and use words that the audience might understand.
A basic question is this: to whom am I talking? Do they understand what I'm saying?
If you don't craft responses to the audience, then what are you doing?

Point taken. But it does depend on whom I'm replying to, and the context of the discussion at hand. When engaging in these types of discussions I don't see much point in breaking things down for people who haven't trained in the stuff that 5heaps (for example) is talking about. If anyone is interested in finding out more, there is Google.

All the best,

Geoff
Last edited by Nyana on Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Nyana » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:03 am

5heaps wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.
because these are wrong or because these are already subsumed in the Pali tradition? or something else?

Because the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka is a complete system of gradual training.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:45 am

5heaps wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:Obviously "No ultimately existent ontological realities" is an ontological claim which is unnecessary and cannot be established.
thats not true even if pretend that 1) we have no ignorance 2) our ignorance does not pertain to objects and other people

this is because we are part of the world and so are our minds. dharma paths are an ontological discovery about oneself. if there even is a soteriology aspect, it may be the feeling of nirvana or something meaningless like that. i say meaningless because it would already fall under the classifications of feelings, mental factors, etc.


Im not certain what you are saying is not true. However, I dont think it is necessary for me to establish an unchanging interval in order to learn about conditions, how they they arise, how they persist and how they pass away. Whenever I look for an unchanging object I find a changing experience and whenever I look for a person to relate to I find only a changing relationship. This conveys to me a frightening degree of personal responsibility. Not wanting to accept this responsibility is the main obstacle to practice for me.


Take Care

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:19 am

5heaps wrote:actually im very interested in how you answer what Buddhagosha says, which is why ive addressed the argument to you several times. its true that i thought Theravada in general posited momentariness in the sense of abiding characteristic natures. its what most of the other Theravadins here believe also. do you say also to them, 'why are you here'?
You cannot accurately say that most Theravadins here believe in the sort of momentariness and svabhava notion you are always pushing. You were not even aware of what Buddhaghosa said until it was pointed out to you. You have exposed the depth of your tenet system bias and you have repeatedly made no attempt at trying to understand what Ñāṇa or I have been saying, insisting that tenet system is the way to read the Theravada and the Pali texts. Why are you here?
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby alan » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:30 am

Smackdown.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Individual » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:43 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
5heaps wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:It doesn't need to be supplemented by Sarvāstivāda, Yogācāra, or Mādhyamaka tenets.
because these are wrong or because these are already subsumed in the Pali tradition? or something else?

Because the Pāḷi Tipiṭaka is a complete system of gradual training.

All the best,

Geoff

Yes, but for clarification, it needs commentaries, sub-commentaries, and sub-sub-sub-sub-commentaries.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby alan » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:48 am

Based on what?
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Individual » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:02 am

Ignorance :D
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby alan » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:06 am

That is not an answer.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby alan » Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:14 am

Or, if you really consider it an answer, it is extremely incorrect. To the point of absurdity.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Individual » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:44 am

alan wrote:Or, if you really consider it an answer, it is extremely incorrect. To the point of absurdity.

If you say so, it would seem so. If you did not say so, it would not seem to be.

What's absurd is that my words didn't actually have any explicit meaning, but you derived a particular meaning from them. How'd you do that and where did that meaning come from, when it was not made explicit?

I said, "Ignorance."

This could mean a variety of things:
1. Ignorance (within society as a whole) is constantly churning out new forms of wrong view and we need constant commentaries to re-clarify things. Because with each particular publication, it opens the door for new ways in which people can misunderstand things. Texts do not come pre-packaged with interpretations (it's the nature of language), so a commentary is sort of an interpretive guide. With each commentary, one could misunderstand it, hence a sub-commentary. But even the sub-commentary could be misunderstood and so on. In truth, it comes down to attaining ultimate knowledge through wisdom born of mindfulness and concentration. Casual pondering is not true wisdom.

2. All actions -- even those by Buddhist monks or Buddhas and Arahants -- take place within the context of Samsara. What superficially appear to be a Buddha's actions, though, are in fact entirely independent of kamma-vipaka. And so, for the perception of an ordinary person of only moderate wisdom, all things, including Buddhist texts, are manifestations of sankharas and according to Dependent Origination, all sankharas are rooted in ignorance. This means that even the Buddha's own teachings could be said to be conditioned by ignorance, a paradoxical statement consistent with the Diamond Sutra's claim that the Buddha never taught anything. But this is not an idea distinct to Mahayana, because you'll find similar ideas written by Nanananda Bhikkhu in Concept And Reality, In Early Buddhist Thought about the Buddha being silent even when he speaks. Again, in truth it comes down to attaining ultimate knowledge through wisdom born of mindfulness and concentration. Casual pondering is not true wisdom.

3. That I personally (being a Mahayanist and a Zen Buddhist) think the commentaries are quite stupid. They might be useful to some people, but they aren't entirely objective or factual, and in some cases are downright nonsensical. Yet again, in truth it comes down to attaining ultimate knowledge through wisdom born of mindfulness and concentration. Casual pondering is not true wisdom.

Out of these three possibilities, you picked one. Right? Or perhaps it isn't one of these three and it's another understanding entirely. How'd you do that and why?

(No need to answer that. It's rhetorical. Don't look at me. Look at your self, please! :))
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby alan » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:20 am

Wow. And I don't mean that in a good way.
You're coming from a strange place--a place I don't want to visit.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby pulga » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:53 pm

[quote="Ñāṇa“Friends, when there is the eye and there are forms and there is eye-consciousness, it is possible that one will point out a designation of contact (phassapaññatti). When there is a designation of contact, it is possible that one will point out a designation of feeling (vedanāpaññatti). When there is a designation of feeling, it is possible that one will point out a designation of perception (saññāpaññatti). When there is a designation of perception, it is possible that one will point out a designation of thought (vitakkapaññatti). When there is a designation of thought, it is possible that one will point out a designation of obsession due to reckonings born of prolific perception (papañcasaññāsaṅkhāsamudācaraṇapaññatti).

This reminds me a little of the Ven. Ñanamoli's "highly conjectual' rendering of the ablative in his original translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta: "From earth he has a percept of earth." Does anyone else see a connection? Or is it just me? :thinking:

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