something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:32 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:37 am

Hanzze wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings 5heaps,

Further to what Tilt says, perhaps you might find Dharma Wheel (the Mahayana and Vajrayana forum) more aligned with your spiritual path/values?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Let us stay "my", "our", "us" look to the other, they have there "own" "my", "or", "us". :-) that is our corner of the sandbox. :-)

Welcome a guest even he looks strange is very Theravadin, I guess. Or was that an other part of the corner, the our Theravadin, corner or the Theravadin corner. :-)
A guest, however, should act with politeness and respect the host's home and beliefs, which is not at all evident with 5heaps.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:39 am

Greetings Hanzze,

Here, proselytization is a violation of the Terms of Service, and we have to be vigilant to ensure people do not cross the line.

If 5heaps' opinion of Theravada is as it is, then one naturally questions what purpose he has here, such as those raised by Tilt.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby ground » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:26 am

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:they [tenet system] should all be studied.
Not at all. The Theravada is a complete path of practice which does not need the tenet system.
yes, and its essential to the world. hopefully it will survive the next 50 years. ours will, since we go step by step by step [through graded tenets].


There seems to lurk what one may call "the tibetan fall of man". I really appreciate the structured tibetan system of exposition of philosophical views and find it very helpful. And I agree that categorization of views using labelled categories is an inevitable conceptual tool to generate structure which is the prerequisite for comparison and discerning views. I also think that in the context of this categorization it is legitimate to talk of "lower" and "higher" tenet systems. However error is inevitable when named traditions are assigned to those categories of views and I feel that obstacles for one's own path may be generated through cultivating the thought " 'our' view is 'higher' than 'theirs' " because such a view may be bondage and a constraint for insight.

Kind regards
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Nyana » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:15 am

5heaps wrote:hopefully it will survive the next 50 years. ours will, since we go step by step by step [through graded tenets].

From a developmental perspective the real gems of the Tibetan systems are lojong, tonglen, lujong, and the dzogrim of trulkhor, tsalung, etc. Without a foundation in these affective and somatic practices the study of the tenet systems is rather anemic.

The Pāḷi dhamma has its own affective and somatic developmental practices without the esoteric structure of the vajrayāna. The Pāḷi dhamma also has little need for the tenet systems of Tibetan lamrim.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:57 am

Hi Geoff, others,
Leaving aside the arguments about Theravada vs other systems, this exchange brings up something that I've puzzled over for a while:
Ñāṇa wrote:Moreover, the individuation of phenomena requires apperceptive memory recognition (saññā) and conceptual designation (paññatti) for differentiation. All such individuation is fabricated, relational, and conventional, and therefore phenomena cannot be established as ultimately existent.

5heaps wrote:this doesnt do anything to address that prior to being conceptually designated, the thing is still the thing. if the thing werent a thing, there would be a lack of the thing (nihilism) in which case it would be senseless to say it could be the focus of conceptual designation.

Ñāṇa wrote:I've never denied the appearance of phenomena.

5heaps wrote:right, you love appearances. i am saying the nihilism comes from not accepting the objects which the appearances are based on.

My impression from listening to Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons is that, though his angle is certainly conceptual proliferation, being fooled by the movie or the magic show, he seems careful not to fall into nihilism by specifically denying the existence of anything in particular. It seems to me that to say that there is only proliferation would be nihilism. Am I misreading Ven Nananada's message?

Mike
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Hanzze » Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:42 am

In the Paṭisambhidāmagga, many meanings are given of emptiness, including nirvana. Formations are said to be empty in, of and by their "own-nature", a similar expression to one used in Mahāyāna literature.

Emptiness is not taught as often by Theravāda teachers as it is by Mahāyānists. One reason for this is that emptiness is seen as a liberating insight in the Theravāda tradition, rather than a philosophical view one needs to understand intellectually; emptiness is often not taught until the teacher decides the student is ready. Another reason is that in some circumstance where a Mahāyānist would use the word "emptiness", a Theravādin would instead use the words "impermanence" or "selflessness" ("anattā") to mean the same thing. A third reason is that in the Theravāda tradition, understanding emptiness is subordinated to the ultimate goal of liberation.[11]

Another view is that in advancing personal growth, it is not metaphysics but phenomenology that is required. Metaphysical views are often irrelevant, or even harmful if the intrinsic emptiness of the fruits of an unskillful act provide a rationale for performing that act.[12]

For more on the Buddha's use of the idea of emptiness in its original phenomenological context and its use in the modern Thai Forest Tradition, see Thanissaro Bhikkhu, Emptiness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Nyana » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:11 pm

mikenz66 wrote:My impression from listening to Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons is that, though his angle is certainly conceptual proliferation, being fooled by the movie or the magic show, he seems careful not to fall into nihilism by specifically denying the existence of anything in particular. It seems to me that to say that there is only proliferation would be nihilism. Am I misreading Ven Nananada's message?

I think you're reading him accurately. It's not that there is only proliferation (papañca); it's that phenomena (dhamma-s) do not need to be (and indeed cannot be) established as ultimately existent ontological realities.

The individuation of particular dhamma-s requires the concomitant engagement of consciousness (viññāṇa) and name (nāma: vedanā, saññā, phassa, cetanā, manasikāra) specific to whatever dhamma is being cognitively individuated. Thus, all such individuation of particulars is fabricated, relational, and conventional.

A thorough understanding of this process of individuation exposes the problem of deluded cognition, and when the problem is thoroughly discerned one can then begin to abandon unskillful processes and develop skillful mental factors such as saddhā, pāmojja, pīti, passaddhi, sukha, samādhi. Beyond this, one begins to clearly see the futility of fabricated processes altogether. As this clear seeing (vipassanā) develops, disenchantment (nibbidā) arises. Then dispassion (virāga) arises. Then as these qualities continue to develop, eventually the path results in liberation through discernment (paññāvimutti) and one realizes the gnosis of elimination (khayeñāṇa) of the influxes (āsava-s), also referred to as the elimination of craving (taṇhakkhaya) as a shorthand expression.

All of this is developmental and soteriological. The path doesn't require establishing philosophical theories and proofs of valid cognition (pamāṇa) or ultimately existent objects. From the perspective of the early Pāḷi dhamma all of this sort of theorizing is just more proliferation (papañca). Nothing needs to be philosophically established beyond the status of mere designation (paññattimatta). This in no way entails nihilism because the dhammavinaya isn't a philosophical head trip; all components of path praxis are to be fully engaged and developed (bhāvanā).

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Nyana » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:19 pm

Hanzze wrote:Maybe that is useful.

Good quote Hanzze. It looks like someone has accurately described the Pāḷi dhamma understanding of suññatā on that Wikipedia page. Maybe it was Ven. Huifeng (a.k.a. Paññāsikhara)?...

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:31 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:My impression from listening to Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons is that, though his angle is certainly conceptual proliferation, being fooled by the movie or the magic show, he seems careful not to fall into nihilism by specifically denying the existence of anything in particular. It seems to me that to say that there is only proliferation would be nihilism. Am I misreading Ven Nananada's message?

I think you're reading him accurately. It's not that there is only proliferation (papañca); it's that phenomena (dhamma-s) do not need to be (and indeed cannot be) established as ultimately existent ontological realities. ...

Thanks for clarifying that, Geoff. It sometimes seemed to me that an "only proliferation" stance was implied when these sorts of issues were discussed.

:anjali:
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby 5heaps » Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:Ah, so you plainly expose your bias.
i am suggesting that you should present your position in a graded manner that makes sense and is of use to ppl. the main part of whats great about the indian tenet system is just the fact that it is graded. if you dont present graded material, noone will care about your position since you never address what the opponent says.

an example of this is your thinking in dealing with momentariness. you cannot handle and address how if you accept that a thing is dependent on causes and conditions, then it is produced. in order for it to function as a produced thing, it must abide as a produced thing, otherwise its production is simultaneous with its disintegration, and youve become a nihilist.

another cool part of studying the indian tenet system presented by ppl like Bhavaviveka 550AD is that you can clearly ascertain the meaning of things such as what is written above. why would you want to understand what is written above? because things appear overly substantial and unchanging and this creates suffering and mental rigidity. its cessation is lucidity and unending spaciousness.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby 5heaps » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:06 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:My impression from listening to Ven Nananada's Nibbana Sermons is that, though his angle is certainly conceptual proliferation, being fooled by the movie or the magic show, he seems careful not to fall into nihilism by specifically denying the existence of anything in particular. It seems to me that to say that there is only proliferation would be nihilism. Am I misreading Ven Nananada's message?

I think you're reading him accurately. It's not that there is only proliferation (papañca); it's that phenomena (dhamma-s) do not need to be (and indeed cannot be) established as ultimately existent ontological realities.

The individuation of particular dhamma-s requires the concomitant engagement of consciousness (viññāṇa) and name (nāma: vedanā, saññā, phassa, cetanā, manasikāra) specific to whatever dhamma is being cognitively individuated. Thus, all such individuation of particulars is fabricated, relational, and conventional.
All of this is developmental and soteriological.
thats more like it. however, the fact of no ultimately existent ontological realities is the KING of ontological statements.

you are after all not just with the cessation of mental afflictions you are also dealing with no more rebirth, no more suffering body, no more suffering people to hang around
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby alan » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:22 am

Nana:
Your replies are overly intellectual.

Perhaps you could phrase yourself in a way that was meant to inform, not impress?
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:26 am

5heaps wrote:the fact of no ultimately existent ontological realities is the KING of ontological statements.


Nana said
It's not that there is only proliferation (papañca); it's that phenomena (dhamma-s) do not need to be (and indeed cannot be) established as ultimately existent ontological realities.


This statement is regarding the necessity of establishing existence. Obviously "No ultimately existent ontological realities" is an ontological claim which is unnecessary and cannot be established.


Take Care

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby 5heaps » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:46 am

gabrielbranbury wrote:Obviously "No ultimately existent ontological realities" is an ontological claim which is unnecessary and cannot be established.
thats not true even if pretend that 1) we have no ignorance 2) our ignorance does not pertain to objects and other people

this is because we are part of the world and so are our minds. dharma paths are an ontological discovery about oneself. if there even is a soteriology aspect, it may be the feeling of nirvana or something meaningless like that. i say meaningless because it would already fall under the classifications of feelings, mental factors, etc.
Last edited by 5heaps on Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Kenshou » Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:50 am

it may be the feeling of nirvana


What?
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:10 am

Kenshou wrote:
it may be the feeling of nirvana


What?
It is stuff that has not a thing to do with the Pali suttas or the Theravada.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Nyana » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:15 am

alan wrote:Nana:
Your replies are overly intellectual.

Perhaps you could phrase yourself in a way that was meant to inform, not impress?

Perhaps it would be better for you to not read my replies Alan.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Kenshou » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:16 am

Tilt-
Okie dokie then.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:22 am

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Ah, so you plainly expose your bias.
i am suggesting that you should present your position in a graded manner that makes sense and is of use to ppl. . . . another cool part of studying the indian tenet system presented by ppl like Bhavaviveka . . . .
Again, you expose you bias annd your willing ignorance. You obviously have no real interest in the Theravada as it understands itself or as Theravadins talk about it, so why are you here?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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