Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Sanghamitta » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:18 am

[ EDIT: Moderator note - this topic was split from the "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval" topic - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6052 - Thanks. Retro.]

As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
But this is not the place for that discussion.

:anjali:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Sanghamitta
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby Kenshou » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:33 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation. But this is not the place for that discussion.


At risk of derailing the thread, I would be interested in knowing the grounds for that idea. I've seen it around now and then but never with any sources (not to imply that you don't have any). I'm simply curious, is all. Maybe a new thread is in order to prevent this one from rupturing.
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Postby BlackBird » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:16 pm

Kenshou wrote:Maybe a new thread is in order to prevent this one from rupturing.


Very good idea :)
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:22 pm

And now we have it.

:geek:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14743
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby BlackBird » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:32 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.


So if Ariyas are out, does that mean the characteristics that define them - stream entry, once returner, non-returner and arahant are also out?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:37 pm

Greetings,

And further to Jack's question, is this to suggest that records of the Buddha labelling himself "the arahant" are fabricated? Did he in fact find the path to, and achieve the cessation of dukkha?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14743
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Individual » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:50 pm

According to Sanghamitta, this is a discussion that doesn't belong here. If that's true, I guess it's OK to give an opinion that doesn't belong here.

http://www.acmuller.net/bud-canon/diamo ... html#div-7
There is neither a teaching nor a non-teaching. How can this be? All the enlightened sages are distinguished [from worldly teachers] by unconditioned phenomena.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Individual
 
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Ben » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:06 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.


Hi Valerie

What an interesting thought! I would be very interested in reading your thoughts on the matter with supporting documentary evidence.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16256
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:01 am

Sanghamitta wrote:[ EDIT: Moderator note - this topic was split from the "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval" topic - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6052 - Thanks. Retro.]

As Retro has correctly pointed out I have dragged the thread off topic. That was not my intention...so I will leave it there.
I will add that I think that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives, and an indicator of the Sangha's institutionalisation.
But this is not the place for that discussion.

:anjali:


That is quite a claim to make. May I ask the basis for the notion that "that the whole concept of "ariyas" is a later insertion into the early narratives"? For example, philological analysis of which texts? Source of the insertion (from non-Buddhist thought, etc.)?
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Paññāsikhara
 
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:41 am

I object strongly to this. A post I made had been lifted out of context and re posted as if from me to start an entirely new thread without such much as a by your leave, or any discussion with me. I think that is sleight of hand, and in fact dishonest.
You chat about it among yourselves lads. Its nothing to do with me.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Sanghamitta
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:50 am

Sanghamitta wrote:I object strongly to this. A post I made had been lifted out of context and re posted as if from me to start an entirely new thread without such much as a by your leave, or any discussion with me. I think that is sleight of hand, and in fact dishonest.
You chat about it among yourselves lads. Its nothing to do with me.

Perhaps you could let us know the context in which it was stated and we can take it from there.
I do not believe that any sleight of hand or dishonesty would be the intention here.
So come on gives us the context and who knows this could turn out to be a great discussion here. :coffee:
With metta
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
User avatar
Phra Chuntawongso
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 11:05 am
Location: Wat SriBoenRuang,Fang,Chiang Mai

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Kenshou » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:09 am

Sanghamitta-

On one hand, I do not see how this question is dependent on the context of the other thread, since they're pretty unrelated things. I think it's a valid topic in of itself.

On the other hand, sorry if I indirectly lead to an annoyance for you, I did intend to wait for a reply in the other thread before doing anything myself, but what's done is done.
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:15 am

You posed it. You answer it.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Sanghamitta
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Kenshou » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:27 am

What?
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:36 am

Someone other than me posed this as a new thread. UNDER MY NAME... Someone other than me can address it.
Or ignore it. :shrug:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Sanghamitta
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Ben » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:43 am

Hi Valerie

Nothing malign is going on. You mentioned yourself that the original thread wasn;t the place for 'that discussion', so I think it was completely innocent of Retro to lift the comment and create a new thread around it - so we could start the discussion here based on your comment regarding ariyas being a later addition and for the other thread to continue without too many tangential side discussions.
Personally, I'm just interested in your point of view and how you came to it. I'm not here for a bit of 'sport'.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16256
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby BlackBird » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:39 am

Ben wrote:Hi Valerie

Nothing malign is going on. You mentioned yourself that the original thread wasn;t the place for 'that discussion', so I think it was completely innocent of Retro to lift the comment and create a new thread around it - so we could start the discussion here based on your comment regarding ariyas being a later addition and for the other thread to continue without too many tangential side discussions.
Personally, I'm just interested in your point of view and how you came to it. I'm not here for a bit of 'sport'.
kind regards

Ben


Couldn't say it any better. In addition I'm not sure how it's out of context Sanghamitta.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
User avatar
BlackBird
 
Posts: 1861
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:06 am

I confess I don't know what the Ariyas are - could somebody briefly describe them?

Thanks.

Spiny
User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby cooran » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am

Hello Spiny, all,

I hope this helps:

The Qualities of Ariya Persons
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/ariyas4.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7717
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Are ariyas a later addition to the Dhamma?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:10 pm

If there are no Ariyas in the dhamma I'm going somewhere I can find them...
:thinking:
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK


Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests