Eternity

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Eternity

Post by Ceisiwr »

Im pretty confident that everyone on this site would agree that a belief in an eternal self is wrong view and a cause of dukkha, but is the view of Nibbana as eternal also a wrong view, and attachment to eternity?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
termite
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Re: Eternity

Post by termite »

Maybe it would be helpful to clarify what you mean by "eternity." "Duration" is surely conditioned; without change there is no measure of time, is there?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Eternity

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings clw_uk,
clw_uk wrote:Im pretty confident that everyone on this site would agree that a belief in an eternal self is wrong view and a cause of dukkha, but is the view of Nibbana as eternal also a wrong view, and attachment to eternity?
Nibbana is an unconditioned element, and thus could rightly be called eternal. It is only that which is conditioned that is subject to change (aniccata).

I think you need to distinguish between nibbana, and the consciousness which makes nibbana its object.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Eternity

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sorry I probably wasnt to clear with my first post.

What im trying to put accross is this, Is the view of Nibbana as a permanent and never ending simply a subtle manefestation of bhava-tanhaa. Does the Buddha acctualy ever put forward that Nibbana is something that never ends?

Its just when something is put forward as permanent and without end it seems to naturally conjure up feelings/images/thoughts of somekind of eternal happiness etc.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Eternity

Post by Prasadachitta »

We have discussed what nirvana means in the modern Theravada forum. On the one hand it is simply the point at which a being is totally free of the causes of suffering or rather greed hatred and delusion. On the other hand the Buddha seems to have said that no arising, changeability, or passing away of nirvana will be discerned.

The first way of thinking about nirvana places it in our future. With the right practice conditions there will emerge a state free from greed hatred and delusion then the being who experiences these conditions will become aware of this experience through direct knowledge.

The second way of thinking about nirvana is in terms of it occupying space. In this way it is an expanse of freedom which can be occupied by the being who realizes it. Like a mind which knows that in whatever way it moves through all that can be experienced nirvana is there unchanging.

We can only think of things in terms of either time or space. That is the limitation of thinking.

What view we take of nirvana is really a matter of what helps us to purify our minds. In some cases people who find it difficult to fathom their own ability to work with their minds in a constructive way might be better off thinking of nirvana as something they are looking for in space. Some kind of element which will help them purify their mind. This kind of practice basically amounts to reflecting on the Buddha. On the other hand some people will be more in tune with the changeability of their minds in accordance with conditions and have confidence in their ability to work with these factors though time to move towards purity. I think we all need to work with both ways of viewing nirvana at different times depending on whats happening with us. We are likely to be either one of these types of people at different times.

There is no other way to formulate how we should think about nirvana other than to measure by its effects on our basic practice patterns. Is it helpful in letting go of what binds us in unskillfulness?

These are my thoughts and they are open to change. 8-)

Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
mountain
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Re: Eternity

Post by mountain »

It is better to see nibbana as a term which is applied to one in whom the outflows have been extinguished. A better source would be Early Monastic Buddhism by Nalinaksha Dutt. See pages 279-294. Here the author deals with the opinions of the Venerable Nagasena. Hope this may help. The book is probably out of print but worth a search.
John
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Eternity

Post by Ceisiwr »

Thanks john will look it up

I think I keep falling into this problem of nibbana and eternity because of my Avijja im looking at it in some term of self
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
mountain
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Re: Eternity

Post by mountain »

clw,
Its really hard to get around the concept of self. Everytime we speculate on the past existences of our selves or others there we are. I try to think of the dhamma lakshanas or marks of existence. They are annica, dukkha and anatta. As you post such very good questions, may I commend to you "What the Buddha Taught" by Walpola Rahula? This is an excellent book. It has expanded since its first publication and remains a classic. Very good section on kamma
John.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Eternity

Post by Ceisiwr »

Thank you john for your advice its very much appreciated.

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
mountain
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Re: Eternity

Post by mountain »

clw,
Thanks for your kindness. Is it not truly amazing that within that lump of grey matter between our ears that the way to liberation exists. The teachings of Lord Buddha are so fantastic. Sometimes when my thinking falls short of the mark I remind myself that its there within. I have received many kindnesses over the years from dhamma brothers and sisters. Mainly Asians.who simply accepted me at face value. Sorry to be blabbing on but I honor with gratitude the chance to assist others. Lord Buddha imho was both the most human and humane of the great teachers.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Eternity

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sorry to be blabbing on but I honor with gratitude the chance to assist others
That is a great virtue you have there my friend

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
thepea
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Re: Eternity

Post by thepea »

soul: the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal.

Immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.

Forever and eternal are synonyms with a slight difference. Forever seems an endless time and eternity is beyond time. Semantics perhaps or a relation of the eternal with this ever changing self.

Example: in Christianity we are the combination of father, the son and the Holy Ghost. In Buddhism this is referred to buddha, dhamma and sangha. In common language this is the eternal the body and the mind.

The eternal seems an excellent match with nibanna(Buddha or the father or god. This is the eternal awareness(consciousness) of the triple gem.
The body and mind or apparent self can be equated as the soul. Although changing, this change has been and will go on for the foreseeable future(forever).

It seems these two traditions are expressing the same teachings. Similarly the Christian faith practitioner upon death, if faith remains true, is born in heaven where they can enjoy a refined quality of life until bodily resurrection.
In dhamma teachings, the faith follower will reach ariya status at death and rebirth in the heavenly realm occurs where they enjoy this refined quality of life until they too let go of the refined dukka and nibbana.

The wisdom(insight) based practitioners in the here and now of both traditions have the opportunity to observe kileshas(sins) make peace, let go of, or ask god for grace. These individuals are reborn or born again and are saved or safe from seeming forever cyclical process of becoming. They are guaranteed eternity as their faith in eternity has been converted to wisdom which is unshakeable. They cannot lose faith prior to death.
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Re: Eternity

Post by pegembara »

Nibbana is outside time and space. Eternity doesn't apply.
Is space eternal?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
thepea
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Re: Eternity

Post by thepea »

pegembara wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:30 am Nibbana is outside time and space. Eternity doesn't apply.
Is space eternal?
If space is defined as the length width and height in which something exists it may fit more in line with forever opposed to eternity.
If space is defined in relation to arupajhana then no it is not eternal it is a mind state subject to change.

Does eternity exist without space?
This is not an answerable question.
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Re: Eternity

Post by pegembara »

Prasadachitta wrote: Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:53 pm The second way of thinking about nirvana is in terms of it occupying space. In this way it is an expanse of freedom which can be occupied by the being who realizes it. Like a mind which knows that in whatever way it moves through all that can be experienced nirvana is there unchanging.

These are my thoughts and they are open to change. 8-)

Metta

Gabriel
Does your mind have any shape, form or color?
If it doesn't, how can it occupy space?
Isn't it seemingly everywhere and nowhere?

That being so, how can nirvana occupy space?

Space is a mental concept just like time and the idea of eternity.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of perceptions of [physical] form, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, and not heeding perceptions of diversity, [perceiving,] 'Infinite space,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of space. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of space — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of space, [perceiving,] 'Infinite consciousness,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness — the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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