clw_uk wrote:If we are being honest its not 100% that the guy even lived. Its the teaching that matters
BlackBird wrote:clw_uk wrote:If we are being honest its not 100% that the guy even lived. Its the teaching that matters
I don't think the teaching is very credible if we make the assumption he didn't, or to a lesser extent entertain doubts.
It does not matter if the story about Ven Channa is literally true; it is used to illustate a point that could have simply been stated without the story. What is the point of "points 1-7" other than to show that the Buddha had as great powers as those likely claimed of other teachers of the time?Alex123 wrote:Tilt,tiltbillings wrote:The difference between “points 1-7” and “point 8” is that point 8 makes a point related to the ehipassiko Dhamma: "if someone gives up this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault. In the bhikkhu that fault is not apparent. Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly."
How can you "come and see" that "Bhikkhu Channa took his life faultlessly"? Isn't this all history? And the existence of Buddha and his awakening, maybe that is history that cannot be verified?
Huh? The Buddha was awakened 45 years before the supposed events of DN 16.All the stuff of the “points 1-7” has to do with aggrandizing the Buddha in terms of his “power,” which is what hagiographies do.
So maybe He didn't become Awakened on that day. Maybe that is unverifiable hagiography? Maybe Mahavira (Jain leader) was more awakened than the Buddha, and the pali canon is simply biased...
"Superhuman" feats of power, the iddhis, have nothing to do with awakening. What did the Buddha say about such things?There is not a thing in the “points 1-7” that is necessary for practice or the attainment of liberation. The redactors of this text, DN 16, are casting the Buddha in a super-human light, something that does find its way into the suttas despite evidence that the Buddha resisted such deification.
There are much more superhuman feats in other suttas than in DN16... Maybe the Buddha wasn't Awakened....
That is the story, which is that he could proolong his life, but obviously Ananda was conveirently portayed as being a bit thick to get the hint. As for shortening his life, not in any significant way. The Buddha had come to end of his life as the text makes clear.Before “points 1-7” we find this rather human expression:
I am old worn out, one who has traversed life's path, I have reached the term of life, which is eighty. Just as an old cart is made to go on by being held together with straps, so the Tathagata's body is kept going by being strapped up." DN ii 101.
And even though He could prolong his existence, He actually shortened it. But as long as you pick and chose what to believe and what to reject, your opinion will not change.
It is not about verifying "deep and supramundane truths very quickly all on his own guidance." First of all it is about puting the teachings into practice, and one may have an experienced teacher to help, but ultimately is is the teachings - Dhamma which are Dhamma - that are our guide. Once we start with puting the teachings into practice, sila and the cultivation of mindfulness and concentration, we can see the postive things the teachings are talking about step by step we will be able to verify that the Way truly leads to the goal.See: It invites everybody to come and see (ehipassiko). The Dhamma invites us to "come and see". In other words, it invites all people to verify for themselves, that it really leads to the goal, that by practicing it, one can reach the Nirvana. It can not be forced on anybody, nobody can reach the goal just by blind faith. One must "come and see" - and make an effort on the Way to the goal. The Dhamma is not only Ehipassiko, but it is: akāliko: It is immediate (akāliko). The results of our practice will come to us immediately, we do not have to wait for them to some distant future. As we become to practice the Dhamma, the fruit will come right away. Gradually, step by step we will be able to verify that the Way truly leads to the goal. And faith, saddha, in the Dhamma does not require that we believe, without question, as being literally true, what has no possibility of ever being directly known.
Before one get rid of delusion and fetters of wrong view, it is a given that there will be tendency to err. It takes a Buddha to point us the right path. Do you honestly think that ordinary Joe Brown can verify deap and supramundane truths very quickly all on his own guidance? More likely he will see what he wants to see, and understand what he wants to understand. The veil of delusion is so strong, that most of the time, most people don't know that they are deluded. It takes an outside help to show them Awakened perspective.
clw_uk wrote:Why all this argument over what the Buddha did or didn't do when he was dying. If we are being honest its not 100% that the guy even lived. Its the teaching that matters
Do you know if the Four Noble Truths are true?Alex123 wrote: And How do you know (unless you've had extraordinary, supramundane insights) that 4NT are true?
tiltbillings wrote:Do you know if the Four Noble Truths are true?Alex123 wrote: And How do you know (unless you've had extraordinary, supramundane insights) that 4NT are true?
If He didn't really live, and if He wasn't someone extraordinary, and considering dozens of spiritual traditions - then why follow His teachings at all? If one doesn't accept certain things because one knows better (that which I don't believe, is all hagiography!), then why study Buddha's teaching at all?
And How do you know (unless you've had extraordinary, supramundane insights) that 4NT are true? Maybe it was sour-grapes ramblings of someone living in 5th Century BC, India in deep poverty and talking about how desire and material goods are bad...
I hope that you see where skepticism, and undue importance given to ones own views & experiences, can lead.
Alex123 wrote:tiltbillings wrote:Do you know if the Four Noble Truths are true?Alex123 wrote: And How do you know (unless you've had extraordinary, supramundane insights) that 4NT are true?
I'd rather not answer that personal question. Please keep the discussion impersonal.
The question follows from your statement. And how do you know if I or Craig haven't had extraordinary insights? But the nice things about the ehipassiko-akāliko Dhamma is that in studying the Four Noble Truths and putting the Buddha's teachings into practice we can start to see the truth of the Buddha's and see the effects of practicing the Buddha's teachings right away. It is what the Buddha taught and I have no reason to doubt him based upon my own experience.Alex123 wrote:tiltbillings wrote:
I'd rather not answer that personal question. Please keep the discussion impersonal.
Alex123 wrote:Individual wrote:You said that sometimes old people relinquish the will to live -- without necessarily asking for death, without necessarily telling anyone. Do you see this as being the same or different from the behavior of the Jonestown suicide cult?
What Jonestown suicide cult was wrong. But I really don't think that it is appropriate to compare it to the Buddha. No one can be compared to the Buddha, and while the Buddha was awakened - they weren't.
The Buddha has relinquished his will to live...
...this would be called suicide today.
Sanghamitta wrote:Alex123 there are at least two logical fallacies in your position.
The first is the False Dilemma Fallacy. You are positing a solution to a non problem.
The second is the Negative Proof Fallacy. You are assuming that the Buddha had an intention which parallels a modern concept of suicide. And that in the absence of any proof that he held that intention you are assuming that absence as proof that he did.
appicchato wrote:I can't believe I'm weighing in on this...The Buddha has relinquished his will to live...
What's wrong with that?......this would be called suicide today.
You might call it suicide, although that doesn't mean everyone else looks at it the same way...
At that time the Lord was living hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, by male and female lay followers, by kings and royal ministers, by sectarian teachers and their disciples, and he lived in discomfort and not at ease. Then the Lord thought: "At present I am living hemmed in by bhikkhus and bhikkhunis... by sectarian teachers and their disciples, and I live in discomfort and not at ease. Suppose I were to live alone, secluded from the crowd?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Now is the time for my total Unbinding, O One-Well-Gone!"
"Then do, Dabba, what you think it is now time to do."
Then Ven. Dabba Mallaputta, rising from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One and, circling him on the right, rose up into the air and sat cross-legged in the sky, in space. Entering the fire property and emerging from it, he was totally unbound. Now, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned. Just as when ghee or oil is burned and consumed, neither ashes nor soot can be discerned, in the same way, when Dabba Mallaputta rose up into the air and, sitting cross-legged in the sky, in space, entered the fire property and then emerged from it and was totally unbound, his body burned and was consumed so that neither ashes nor soot could be discerned.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html