Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:02 am

Two Sorts of Thinking

My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.


"I have given this simile in order to convey a meaning. The meaning is this: 'The large, low-lying marsh' is a term for sensual pleasures. 'The large herd of deer' is a term for beings. 'The man not desiring their benefit, not desiring their welfare, not desiring their rest from bondage' is a term for Mara, the Evil One. 'The false path' is a term for the eightfold wrong path, i.e., wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, & wrong concentration. 'The male decoy' is a term for passion & delight. 'The female decoy' is a term for ignorance. 'The man desiring their benefit, desiring their welfare, desiring their rest from bondage' is a term for the Tathagata, the Worthy One, the Rightly Self-awakened One. 'The safe, restful path that led to their rapture' is a term for the noble eightfold path, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html

nevasaññā-nasaññayatana
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby alan » Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:40 am

Fundamentally baffling.
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:19 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:02 am

TMingyur wrote:
Hanzze wrote:I know I am far away from the actual point of the discussion. :-)

Right view - one needs not to think
Right intention - one needs not to think
Right speech - one needs not to think
Right action - one needs not to think
Right livelihood - one needs not to think
Right effort - one needs not to think
Right mindfulness - one needs not to think
Right concentration - one needs not to think


Aha ... so you get all that "right" through not-thinking. Interesting.


Kind regards

No, the right is already there. He just doesn't interfere with it through thinking. :)

Also, the brain works just fine (better than ever, actually). Hanzze doesn't sit there going, "Durrrrr!" :rolleye:

It's just that when the mind is tamed, what we call "thinking" is more often than not an obstruction to mental clarity: seeing clearly, feeling clearly, and acting clearly. When something is seen, felt, understood, and acted upon, the in-between linguistic cognitive process (along with the self-reflexive thinking process) is an unnecessary burden. You find yourself wandering the world going, "the the the the", or "this that this that this that," and you have to stop and ask yourself, "Why am I doing this? Not necessary!" :)
Last edited by Individual on Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:07 am

Individual wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Hanzze wrote:I know I am far away from the actual point of the discussion. :-)

Right view - one needs not to think
Right intention - one needs not to think
Right speech - one needs not to think
Right action - one needs not to think
Right livelihood - one needs not to think
Right effort - one needs not to think
Right mindfulness - one needs not to think
Right concentration - one needs not to think


Aha ... so you get all that "right" through not-thinking. Interesting.


Kind regards

No, the right is already there. He just doesn't interfere with it through thinking. :)
You mean like we are already enlightened sort of thing?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:You mean like we are already enlightened sort of thing?

Of course not. Thoughts of self is a deluded mind. This is no enlightened state of personhood.

But listen carefully: You are already impermanent and notself, right? You agree? One does not "become impermanent and notself", it's what you already are.

And the full and total realization of notself and impermanence is "enlightenment". You agree?

Therefore: The full and total realization of yourself is enlightenment. The belief that, "I am this smart person," or "I am this deluded person," that right there is the illusion. :)
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:19 am

Individual wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:You mean like we are already enlightened sort of thing?

Of course not. Thoughts of self is a deluded mind. This is no enlightened state of personhood.

But listen carefully: You are already impermanent and notself, right? You agree? One does not "become impermanent and notself", it's what you already are.

And the full and total realization of notself and impermanence is "enlightenment". You agree?

Therefore: The full and total realization of yourself is enlightenment. The belief that, "I am this smart person," or "I am this deluded person," that right there is the illusion. :)
There may be "no enlightened state of personhood," but are you trying to say that what I am really am, in my true non-personhood nature, is enlightened?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:27 am

tiltbillings wrote:There may be "no enlightened state of personhood," but are you trying to say that what I am really am, in my true non-personhood nature, is enlightened?

No, because the thought "my true non-personhood nature" is also a form of sakkaya-ditthi, just more subtle. :)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:29 am

Notice how you began that line of thought: "What I really am"-->"is my true non-personhood nature".

You are still making self-identity relations, even when you say, "I am not this or that."

It's just that the object of self-view is not an explicit material object; the mental activity is still the same.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:42 am

Individual wrote:Notice how you began that line of thought: "What I really am"-->"is my true non-personhood nature".

You are still making self-identity relations, even when you say, "I am not this or that."
No; I am using conventional language, understanding full well the Dhamma context of the three marks and intedependent arising.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:14 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:24 pm

At the risk of stating the obvious Hanzze, and I am unclear what your last sentence in particular means...this is a Theravada Discussion Forum..just as it says at the top of the page..it should be no surprise that the emphasis tends to be the Theravada view.
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:28 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:38 pm

I dont accept at all Hanzze that Theravada is the way of not thinking. I think that the Theravada is the way of all of our faculties.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Individual » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:03 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Individual wrote:Notice how you began that line of thought: "What I really am"-->"is my true non-personhood nature".

You are still making self-identity relations, even when you say, "I am not this or that."
No; I am using conventional language, understanding full well the Dhamma context of the three marks and intedependent arising.

If you understood them full well, there would be no suffering, old age and death.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:18 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:17 pm

I have no idea what you mean.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Luke » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:36 pm

Laurens wrote:Would you guys agree that Buddhism is anti-thinking, and anti-intellectual?

Buddhism is anti-wrong thinking. Most of the thoughts we usually treasure are most likely caused by selfishness, attachment, and other negative emotions. We don't like a Buddhist teacher telling us that our usual habits are bad, and this often makes us feel anger and resentment (even more mental afflictions). However, a kind Buddhist teacher will probably try to help a student reduce his/her negative thoughts slowly enough that this knee-jerk resentment won't arise and become an obstacle.

Buddhism is pro-right thinking. I don't know any Buddhist who would chastise you for thinking truly compassionate thoughts.

And Buddhism doesn't value things which many people find impressive: fame, power, wealth, beauty, etc. This also makes many ordinary people uncomfortable.

I think it's not so much that Buddhism is anti-thinking, but that Buddhism does refute many assumptions which people typically have.
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:53 pm

Well said Luke.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Ben » Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:14 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:I dont accept at all Hanzze that Theravada is the way of not thinking. I think that the Theravada is the way of all of our faculties.

Indeed. An ancient moniker for practitioner was vibhajavadin meaning 'those who give a detailed answer after careful consideration'. In my experience, anyone who considers Theravada as 'non-thinking' just doesn't understand it.
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