Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:18 pm

Individual wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Individual wrote:Notice how you began that line of thought: "What I really am"-->"is my true non-personhood nature".

You are still making self-identity relations, even when you say, "I am not this or that."
No; I am using conventional language, understanding full well the Dhamma context of the three marks and intedependent arising.

If you understood them full well, there would be no suffering, old age and death.
And your point is, if there is one?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Hanzze
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:47 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Ben
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Ben » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:03 am

Hi Hannes
I agree with most of what you said except the following points:

Hanzze wrote:he had not given a way a practice for laypeople...
...Some may practice Theravada as a kind of hobby, but in any way a layman will need to stay on the level of thinking.
...Think till he will not find a way out.

...letting go of material is the first step...
A layman may serve the Sangha well, a layman may stand behind the ancient way but a layman can only think of freedom and liberation.

That is the way given in the Pali Canon


I would like to deal with the last point first. The idea that a layperson can not practice or is incapable of freedom and liberation is supported by the Pali Canon. If so, please provide categorical evidence that this is the case. It is certainly not my understanding.

Also, I would have thought the first step was not 'letting go', but by adopting sila. I'm not sure what you mean by 'letting go', whether you mean renunciation or letting go of mental attachments. But in my way of thinking, both come as a result of adopting sila, and developing some concentration and insight.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
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e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

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Hanzze
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:53 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Ben
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Ben » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:15 am

Hi Hannes

"Difficult, Sona, is it to sleep alone, to eat one meal a day, and to observe celibacy for as long as life lasts. While remaining a householder, you should apply yourself to the Buddha's teaching, and at the proper times you may sleep alone, eat one meal a day, and observe celibacy."

-- Vin.i,194-98

What do you think that means?
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

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Hanzze
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:29 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Ben
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Ben » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:39 am

Hi Hannes

I disagree with you.
The above was taken from an incident where the householder Sona approached Mahakaccana seeking ordination recorded in the Vinaya. Mahakaccana rebuked Sona twice, saying:
While remaining a householder, you should apply yourself to the Buddha's teaching

Only after Sona requested a third time did Mahakaccana ordain him.
I think its pretty clear that the Dhamma was not intended to be the sole domain of the ordained and that the path of liberation was not off limits to lay people.
And this isn't the only example, there are many examples in the Tipitaka of lay people engaging in the Dhamma in different ways and achieving extraordinary results.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

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Hanzze
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:51 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:20 am

There are plenty of cases in the Canon of lay disciples with attainments.

Majjhima Nikaya 73: Maha-vacchagotta Sutta, The Major Discourse to Vacchagotta
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... /mn-73.htm
‘Good, Gotama, wait! Other than bhikkhus, and bhikkhunis. Is there a single lay disciple of Gotama, who wearing white clothes had led the holy life, has destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and is born spontaneously, not to proceed?’ ‘Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, who have destroyed the five lower bonds to the sensual world, and born spontaneously would not proceed.’

:anjali:
Mike

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Hanzze
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Re: Is Buddhism anti-thinking?

Postby Hanzze » Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:52 am

Thanks for sharing mikenz66,

Vaccha, if you so desire, with the destruction of desires, release the mind of desires, and be released through wisdom, realising it here and now. That mindfulness becomes eye witness, in that mental faculty. - about thinking

Then venerable Vacchagotta, delighted with the words of the Blessed One, got up from his seat, worshipped and circumambulated the Blessed One and went away. Venerable Vacchagotta secluded and withdrawn from the crowd abode diligent for dispelling. For whatever reason sons of clansmen leave the household rightfully and go forth as a homeless that incomparable end of the holy life he, here and now realized and abode. He knew, birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, what should be done is done, there is nothing more to wish. Venerable Vacchagotta became one of the perfect ones.. - about, it always end up in homeless life
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_


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