No place for spirituality in Theravada?

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:18 pm

What zavk said was rightly discerned and also hazy at the same time. I reject Spirituality, because I reject use of glittering generalities in general because they're used to exploit one way or another. Sometimes by EXACTLY the way that zavk got the negative association, which is by allowing him to project upon it (because it is a meaningless term) and also for the same reasons he explained other people like the term. It's all ego masturbation( and I like that word because it makes you immediately think about it). If a word is meaningless, and nebulous like spiritual, then why use it?
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:28 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby KonstantKarma » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:30 pm

Has anybody tried just being?

:namaste:

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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:27 pm

KonstantKarma wrote:Has anybody tried just being?

:namaste:


Being is meaningless if you don't know what it means either. :jumping: Meaningless words are funny. What do you contend that being means? Letting things stay as they are? Well that won't happen because they'll change. The nebulous meaning of "spiritual" evolves because people assign their own personal meaning to the word. Is that helpful to allowing them to discern reality? I don't think so, I think it's all adding to an already clouded view.
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby KonstantKarma » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:39 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
KonstantKarma wrote:Has anybody tried just being?

:namaste:


Being is meaningless if you don't know what it means either. :jumping: Meaningless words are funny. What do you contend that being means? Letting things stay as they are? Well that won't happen because they'll change. The nebulous meaning of "spiritual" evolves because people assign their own personal meaning to the word. Is that helpful to allowing them to discern reality? I don't think so, I think it's all adding to an already clouded view.


I think being is fairly straightforward and hard for most people to skew... Being doesn't involve any action other than observing, including the observation of things changing.

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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:49 pm

KonstantKarma wrote:I think being is fairly straightforward and hard for most people to skew... Being doesn't involve any action other than observing, including the observation of things changing.


That's how you project such a word. Being can be described in terms of animate versus indeterminate, transcendental or substantial, Empirical or ideal, and it all is related to how we perceive it. This is why it's also a dangerous word to use. It's like existence. What do you mean when you say something is "existing"?
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby KonstantKarma » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:11 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
KonstantKarma wrote:I think being is fairly straightforward and hard for most people to skew... Being doesn't involve any action other than observing, including the observation of things changing.


That's how you project such a word. Being can be described in terms of animate versus indeterminate, transcendental or substantial, Empirical or ideal, and it all is related to how we perceive it. This is why it's also a dangerous word to use. It's like existence. What do you mean when you say something is "existing"?


We perceive words, that's how we communicate. How would you prefer the Dhamma be taught to you, if you don't wish words to be used?

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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:19 pm

KonstantKarma wrote:
Wizard in the Forest wrote:We perceive words, that's how we communicate. How would you prefer the Dhamma be taught to you, if you don't wish words to be used?


If words don't work, then demonstration.
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:20 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:That's how you project such a word. Being can be described in terms of animate versus indeterminate, transcendental or substantial, Empirical or ideal, and it all is related to how we perceive it. This is why it's also a dangerous word to use. It's like existence. What do you mean when you say something is "existing"?

Personally, I mean "don't drive into it"
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:27 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Wizard in the Forest wrote: Personally, I mean "don't drive into it"


Personally for me it means, and with no disrespect is, "don't step in it". If I find myself in my own created nonsense by "being" then like when I accidentally step in dog piles, I learn that it stinks and don't step in it in the future. Mental defilements are the same.
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby KonstantKarma » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:31 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
KonstantKarma wrote:
Wizard in the Forest wrote:We perceive words, that's how we communicate. How would you prefer the Dhamma be taught to you, if you don't wish words to be used?


If words don't work, then demonstration.


I may be wrong, but I think Zen is pretty into this. A lot of us that find our way to Theravada because we gain much insight from the written word, such at the suttas and books on the teachings. There is much to do with how words are perceived, but the mind perceives demonstrations in the same way as words- each mind, and therefore perception, is different.

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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:47 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:Personally for me it means, and with no disrespect is, "don't step in it". If I find myself in my own created nonsense by "being" then like when I accidentally step in dog piles, I learn that it stinks and don't step in it in the future. Mental defilements are the same.

Good one! My turn - what do you mean by "mental defilement"?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby clw_uk » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:53 pm

Depends on what the word means, its quite vague


I have heard put as knowing God, simple meditation, ghosts, care for the world or just plain at the beauty of the universe


Means different things to different people really
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:08 pm

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:36 pm

kirk5a wrote:Good one! My turn - what do you mean by "mental defilement"?


Ignorance- not knowing karma, not knowing the meaning and practice of 3 Jewels, closed-mindedness, lack of wisdom
Attachment- or desire, not wanting to be separated from someone or something, grasping at it like it belongs to me
Anger- wanting to be separated from someone or something, can lead to relentless desire to hurt others; causes unhappiness
Pride- an inflated sense of superiority supported by one's worldly views, which includes disrespect of others
Doubt- which is deluded indecisive wavering , being in two minds about reality; usually leads to negative actions
Wrong views- which are speculative delusions based on emotional afflictions distinguished in 5 types: belief in the self as permanent or non-existent, denying karma, not understanding the value of the 3 Jewels; closed-mindedness (my view -which is wrong- is best); wrong conduct (not towards liberation)
Wrath- a hatred brought about by increased anger, a malicious state wishing to cause immediate harm to others
Vengeance- malice or resentment caused by not forgetting harm done by a person, and seeking to return harm done to oneself
Rage- spite and outrage which is the intention to utter harsh speech in reply to unpleasant words when wrath and malice become unbearable
Cruelty- vindictiveness, mercilessness brought about by being devoid of compassion or kindness, seeking harm to others
Envy- or jealousy brought about by internal anger caused by attachment, when it is unbearable to bear good things others have
Greed avarice, or miserliness which is intense clinging to possessions and their increase
Vanity- self-satisfaction which is seeing one's good fortune giving one a false sense of confidence or being intoxicated with oneself
Excitement- wildness, frenzy, or mental agitation which is distraction towards desire objects, not allowing the mind to rest on something wholesome which obstructs single pointed concentration
Concealment- which is hiding one's negative qualities when others with good intention refer to them which causes regret
Dullness- which is muddle-headedness caused by fogginess which makes mind dark/heavy like when going to sleep, coarse dullness is when the object is unclear, subtle dullness is when the object has no intense clarity
Faithlessness - no belief of that which is worthy of respect; it can be the idea that virtue is unnecessary, or a mistaken view of virtue; it forms the basis for laziness
Laziness - being attached to temporary pleasure, not wanting to do virtue or only little; opposite of diligence
Forgetfulness - causes one to not clearly remember virtuous acts, inducing distraction to disturbing objects - not "just forgetting", but negative tendency
Inattentiveness -a lack of conscience - "distracted wisdom" after rough or no analysis, not fully aware of one's conduct, careless indifference and moral failings; intentional seeking mental distraction like daydreaming
Hypocrisy- pretension or pretending to have non-existent qualities
Dishonesty- smugness by hiding one's faults, giving no clear answers, no regret, snobbery & conceit, self-importance and finding faults with others
Shamelessness - consciously not avoiding evil, it supports all root and secondary delusions
Inconsiderateness - not avoiding evil, being inconsiderate of other's practice, ingratitude
Unconscientiousness - carelessness basically the 3 delusions plus laziness; wanting to act unrestrained
Distraction- mental wandering or inability to focus on any virtuous object

Those are the basics....
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:41 pm

KonstantKarma wrote: I may be wrong, but I think Zen is pretty into this.


You are not wrong, but at the same time wrong. Zen might be into this, but so is Theravada.

A lot of us that find our way to Theravada because we gain much insight from the written word, such at the suttas and books on the teachings.


If you focus on the teachings as mere intellectual exercise, you won't get anywhere. You must put them into practice.

There is much to do with how words are perceived, but the mind perceives demonstrations in the same way as words- each mind, and therefore perception, is different.


Without reaching beyond the Jhana of perception and non-perception, everything will be a perception. The key is not not let these perceptions control or determine reality. If one cannot do that then that is the least of one's problems.
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:45 pm

clw_uk wrote:Depends on what the word means, its quite vague


I have said the word is a glittering generality which therefore makes the word essentially meaningless until you project your own perceptions and emotions on the word right?

I have heard put as knowing God, simple meditation, ghosts, care for the world or just plain at the beauty of the universe


The word is meaningless. It can mean me cleaning dog piles, and I could be perfectly justified calling it thusly. Which is why I am warning heavily against its use.

Means different things to different people really


Because it's a meaningless word. It's so nebulous it can mean whatever you want it to mean. :jumping:
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:50 pm

Hanzze wrote:That is indeed most spiritual, Wizard in the Forest
Just do it! Be just a spiritual being.
A breathing body and a peaceful mind.


Let's play with this!

That is indeed most insightful, Hanzze
Just do it! just improve your own wisdom, morality, and mental development by allowing for
A breathing body and a peaceful mind. :anjali:

Meaning enhanced.
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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:11 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Good one! My turn - what do you mean by "mental defilement"?


Ignorance- not knowing karma, not knowing the meaning and practice of 3 Jewels, closed-mindedness, lack of wisdom
Attachment- or desire, not wanting to be separated from someone or something, grasping at it like it belongs to me
Anger- wanting to be separated from someone or something, can lead to relentless desire to hurt others; causes unhappiness
...

Thanks. What is the source of this list?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: No place for spirituality in Theravada?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:16 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Wizard in the Forest wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Good one! My turn - what do you mean by "mental defilement"?


Ignorance- not knowing karma, not knowing the meaning and practice of 3 Jewels, closed-mindedness, lack of wisdom
Attachment- or desire, not wanting to be separated from someone or something, grasping at it like it belongs to me
Anger- wanting to be separated from someone or something, can lead to relentless desire to hurt others; causes unhappiness
...

Thanks. What is the source of this list?


An analysis from the Abhidharmakosha which has the 51 types of Cittas.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir


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