Did the Buddha teach that we have choice?

[clw_uk]

Do you have a link I cant find it on the internet

[Alex123]

Do you have a link I cant find it on the internet

First here is the extract on

[ Knowledge Not Shared By Disciples ]
LXVIII. Knowledge of penetration of others' faculties
LXIX. Knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies
LXX. Knowledge of the Twin Metamorphosis (Marvel)
LXXI. Knowledge of the Great Compassion
LXXII. Omniscient Knowledge
LXXIII. Unobstructed Knowledge

Here are those two (very dry) chapters:

[ CHAPTER LXXII. -LXXIII. - OMNISCIENT AND UNOBSTRUCTED KNOWLEDGE ]
598. What is the Perfect One's omniscient knowledge?
599. It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed
knowledge.

All that is past it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.
All that is future it knows,...
All that is presently-arisen it knows,...
Eye and visible objects: all that it knows,...
Ear and sounds: all that it knows,...
Nose and odours: all that it knows,...
Tongue and flavours: all that it knows,...
Body and tangible objects: all that it knows,...
Mind and ideas: all that it knows,...

600. The extent of the meaning of impermanence, the meaning of pain, the meaning of not self: all that it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge:
it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge. The extent of materiality's meaning of impermanence, meaning of pain,
meaning of not self: all that it knows,... [and so on with the rest of the 201 ideas listed in §5 up to]...
The extent of ageing-and-death's meaning of impermanence, meaning of pain, meaning of not self: all that it knows,...

601. The extent of the meaning of direct knowledge in direct knowledge: all that it knows,...
The extent of the meaning of full understanding in full understanding: all that it knows,...
The extent of the meaning of abandoning in abandoning: all that it knows,...
The extent of the meaning of developing in developing: all that it knows,...
The extent of the meaning of realizing in realizing: all that it knows,...
The extent of the meaning of aggregate in the aggregates: all that it knows,...
The extent of the meaning of principle in the principles: all that it knows,...
The extent of the meaning of base in the bases: all that it knows,...
The extent of the meaning of formed in what is formed: all that it knows,...
The extent of the meaning of unformed in the unformed: all that it knows,...

602. To the extent that ideas are profitable: all that it knows,...
To the extent that ideas are unprofitable:...
To the extent that ideas are indeterminate:...
To the extent that ideas are of the sensual-desire sphere:...
To the extent that ideas are of the material sphere:...
To the extent that ideas are of the immaterial sphere:...
To the extent that ideas are unincluded: all that it knows,...
603. To the extent of the meaning of suffering in suffering: all that it knows,...
To the extent of the meaning of origin in origin:...
To the extent of the meaning of cessation in cessation:...
To the extent of the meaning of path in the path: all that it knows,...

604. To the extent of the meaning of discrimination of meaning in the discrimination of meaning: all that it knows,...
To the extent of the meaning of discrimination of ideas in the discrimination of ideas: all that it knows,...
To the extent of the meaning of discrimination of language in the discrimination of language: all that it knows,... [133]
To the extent of the meaning of discrimination of perspicuity in the discrimination of perspicuity: all that it knows,...

605. To the extent of knowledge of penetration of others' faculties: all that it knows,...
To the extent of knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies: all that it knows,...
To the extent of knowledge of the Twin Metamorphosis: all that it knows,...
To the extent of knowledge of the attainment of the Great Compassion: all that it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction
there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.

606. To the extent of what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, encountered, sought, considered by the mind, in the world with its deities, its Māras and
its Brahmā Gods, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmans, with its princes and men: all that it knows, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it
is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.

607. Here in this world is naught unseen by him, Naught uncognized, and naught unknowable; He has experienced all that can be known:
Therefore the Perfect One is called All-seer.

608. All-seer. In what sense All-seer?
There are fourteen kinds of Enlightened One's knowledge:
Knowledge of suffering is an Enlightened One's knowledge.
Knowledge of the origin of suffering...
Knowledge of the cessation of suffering...
Knowledge of the way leading to the cessation of suffering ...
Knowledge of the discrimination of meanings ...
Knowledge of the discrimination of ideas...
Knowledge of the discrimination of language ...
Knowledge of the discrimination of perspicuity ...
Knowledge of the penetration of others' faculties...
Knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies ...
Knowledge of the Twin Metamorphosis...
Knowledge of the attainment of the Great Compassion...
Omniscient knowledge is an Enlightened One's knowledge.
Unobstructed knowledge is an Enlightened One's knowledge.
These are the fourteen kinds of Enlightened One's knowledge. Of these fourteen kinds of Enlightened One's knowledge, eight are shared by disciples and six are not shared by disciples.

609. [134] To the extent of the meaning of suffering in suffering all is known, there is no meaning of suffering unknown, thus it is omniscient
knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge. To the extent of the meaning of suffering in suffering all is seen, all is
recognized, all is realized, all is sounded by understanding, there is no meaning of suffering unsounded by understanding, thus it is omniscient
knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge. To the extent of the meaning of origin in origin ... [and so on with
each of the rest of the four actualities.]

610. To the extent of the meaning of discrimination-of-meanings in the discrimination-of-meanings ... [and so on with the rest of the four discriminations
up to] ... To the extent of the meaning of discrimination-of-perspicuity in the discrimination-of-perspicuity all is known, there is no meaning of discrimination-of-perspicuity unknown, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.
To the extent of the meaning of discrimination of perspicuity in the discrimination-of-perspicuity all is seen, all is recognized, all is realized,
all is sounded by understanding, there is no meaning of discrimination-of perspicuity unsounded by understanding, thus it is omniscient knowledge:
it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.

611. To the extent of knowledge of others' faculties ... To the extent of knowledge of beings' biasses and underlying tendencies
...
To the extent of knowledge of the Twin Metamorphosis...
To the extent of knowledge of the attainment of the Great Compassion
...
To the extent of what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, encountered, sought, considered by the mind, in the world with its deities, its Māras and
its Brahmā Gods, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmans, with its princes and men, all is known, all is seen,... omniscient knowledge:
it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge.

612. Here in this world is naught unseen by him, Naught uncognized, and naught unknowable; He has experienced all that can be known: Therefore the Perfect One is called All-seer.
End of Treatise on Knowledge

[kirk5a]

Since Buddha could know the future through his omniscient knowledge (All that is future it knows...), it means that only that kind of future would ever occur, which is why it is predictable like sunrise or sunset.

So whatever is going to happen, will happen. This makes knowledge of the future possible.


With metta,

Alex

If for the sake of argument we accept the Buddha could know the future in perfect detail, why, do you suppose, did not teach the following? Or if it is your claim that he did, where? Not these views "extrapolated" from something else he said, but where he said the following, if not exactly, then with the same meaning?

only that kind of future would ever occur

So whatever is going to happen, will happen.

[Alex123]

If for the sake of argument we accept the Buddha could know the future in perfect detail, why, do you suppose, did not teach the following? Or if it is your claim that he did, where? Not these views "extrapolated" from something else he said, but where he said the following, if not exactly, then with the same meaning?.

Buddha did have prophecies about the future, like in DN26

Ven TB's paraphrase of section he didn't translate.

In the future, as morality continues to degenerate, human life will continue to shorten to the point were the normal life span is 10 years, with people reaching sexual maturity at five. "Among those human beings, the ten courses of action (see AN 10.176) will have entirely disappeared... The word 'skillful' will not exist, so from where will there be anyone who does what is skillful? Those who lack the honorable qualities of motherhood, fatherhood, contemplative-hood, & priest-hood will be the ones who receive homage... Fierce hatred will arise, fierce malevolence, fierce rage, & murderous thoughts: mother for child, child for mother, father for child, child for father, brother for sister, sister for brother." Ultimately, conditions will deteriorate to the point of a "sword-interval," in which swords appear in the hands of all human beings, and they hunt one another like game. A few people, however, will take shelter in the wilderness to escape the carnage, and when the slaughter is over, they will come out of hiding and resolve to take up a life of skillful and virtuous action again. With the recovery of virtue, the human life span will gradually increase again until it reaches 80,000 years, with people attaining sexual maturity at 500. Only three diseases will be known at that time: desire, lack of food, and old age. Another Buddha — Metteyya (Maitreya) — will gain Awakening, his monastic Sangha numbering in the thousands. The greatest king of the time, Sankha, will go forth into homelessness and attain arahantship under Metteyya's guidance.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

11. (2) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes. That too is a Tathagata's power...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-7

He also knew that He would die in 3 month, after he relinquished his will to live.

Before long the Parinibbana of the Tathagata will come about. Three months hence the Tathagata will utterly pass away."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html

Buddha as newborn child knew that this is his last birth, that He will become the chief in this world.

Venerable sir I have heard these words from the Blessed One himself and you acknowledged them. "ânanda, soon after the one aspiring enlightenment was born he stood on his feet, and while the white umbrella was borne over him, went seven steps to the north, looked in all directions and utterred majestic words. I'm the chief in this world, the most accepted and the most senior. This is my last birth, I will not be born again. " Venerable sir, this I bear as something wonderful and surprising of the Blessed One
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... tta-e.html

There are also suttas where the Buddha has said that such and such is going to be reborn here or there.

[Alex123]

only that kind of future would ever occur
So whatever is going to happen, will happen.

If one can accurately predict the future, it means that only that future, only that single possibility would occur and no other possibilty. That is why it could be predicted in the first place. If future was unpredictable, causeless, or random, then one couldn't accurately predict it.

By future I don't just mean 100 years from now. It could be 1 hour or even 1 minute from now. If Buddha could know exactly what a person would do or choose next, it would mean that only that possibility would ever occur (and no other event) which would make the prediction possible. It would mean that choices and actions are predictable, and like a clock work - for an omniscient being.

Ex: If you have all the info, all the formulas, then you could predict where, lets say, Jupiter will be on such and such a date in the future. I guess similar is with people, just much much more complex. This is why it is Buddha's power, not power of disciples (not even Arahants have it).

[kirk5a]

I see there were prophecies, I'm asking why he did not teach hard determinism in the fashion you have been presenting it. If he had, I would think you could simply point out a sutta that mirrored your view, and that would be that.

[Alex123]

I see there were prophecies, I'm asking why he did not teach hard determinism in the fashion you have been presenting it. If he had, I would think you could simply point out a sutta that mirrored your view, and that would be that.

"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that. " - Ud 1.3

Ex: When there is A, then B occurs. When there is B, then C occurs. And so on perhaps millions of years into the future. After all, He knew everything about conditions of phenomena and knew the results of actions undertaken.

11. (2) "Again, the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes. That too is a Tathagata's power...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-7

If Buddha didn't have omniscience, then He wouldn't know what would happen to a certain person in the future. If Buddha's omniscient knowledge is infallible, then it will be infallible and fixed that that person will do exactly that which was predicted by the Buddha.

If Buddha could infallibly know what a particular person would choose, then that person had no other choice but to choose what the Buddha has predicted. That action would be totally fixed so that it could be predicted by the Buddha.


Omniscience and "free choice" is incompatible.

Imagine someone who threw a ball into the air. If you know the speed and acceleration at which a ball is traveling, the direction it flies, the weight of the ball, forces of gravity, air pressure, wind, and all the other factors that affect the ball, you can predict exactly where and when it will land. It would be simple calculation for physicist. And a professional basketball player can intuitively know these things due to lots of practice. So if it is possible in theory to know the choice that a person would make, the choice is not free and has happened the only possible way that it ever could.

[kirk5a]

"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that. " - Ud 1.3
.

I'm looking for something along the lines of beings as leaves in the wind, marionettes, billard balls, unrolling balls of string... did he teach that?

[tiltbillings]

"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that. " - Ud 1.3
.

I'm looking for something along the lines of beings as leaves in the wind, marionettes, billard balls, unrolling balls of string... did he teach that?

He did not. Since it denies moral responsibility, he condemn that sort of thinking.

[Alex123]

He did not. Since it denies moral responsibility, he condemn that sort of thinking.

Good actions lead to good results, bad actions lead to bad results. What is is unethical there?


If "the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes."

Then why can't He know what a person would choose in such and such a circumstance thus denying the existence of free choice?

If he knows fully well causes and effects, then why can't he know the future:

Ex: When there is A, then B occurs. When there is B, then C occurs. And so on in the far future.

[Alex123]

I'm looking for something along the lines of beings as leaves in the wind, marionettes, billard balls, unrolling balls of string... did he teach that?

In VsM there is:

Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, [595] yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness. This is how it should be regarded. Hence the Ancients said:

'The mental and material are really here, But here there is no human being to be found, For it is void and merely fashioned like a doll—Just suffering piled up like grass and sticks'.
-VsM XVIII, 31

In Vimuttimagga

SIMILE OF THE PUPPET
Q. How should one determine the elements through "puppet"? A. It is comparable to a skilful master of puppets who makes of wood (effigies) of humans, complete in every part, in the form of man or woman, and makes these walk, dance, sit or squat through the pulling of strings. Thus these puppets are called bodies; the master of puppets is the past defilement by which this body is made complete; the strings are the tendons; the clay is flesh; the paint is the skin; the interstices are space. (By) jewels, raiment and ornaments (they) are called men and women. Thoughts (of men and women) are to be known as the tugging by the element of air. Thus they walk, dwell, go out, or come in, stretch out, draw in, converse or speak.1 These puppet-men, born together with the element of consciousness, are subject to anxiety, grief and suffering through the causes and conditions of anxiety and torment. They laugh or frolic or shoulder. Food sustains these puppets; and the faculty of life2 keeps these puppets going. The ending of life results in the dismembering of the puppet. If there happens to be defiling kamma, again a new puppet will arise. The first beginning of such a puppet cannot be seen; also, the end of such a puppet cannot be seen.3 Thus one determines the elements through "puppet". And that yogin by these ways and through these activities discerns this body through "puppet" thus: "There is no being; there is no soul".

[tiltbillings]

The Buddha was not all knowing. He just knew the nature of things, i.e. three marks etc

He was a knower of the all:

"Monks, I will teach you the all. And what is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds the nose and odors, the tongue and tastes, the body and touch, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all. If anyone, monks, should speak thus: ' Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all' - that would be a mere empty boast." SN IV 15.

http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol4/was_the_buddha_omniscient.html

[kirk5a]

He did not. Since it denies moral responsibility, he condemn that sort of thinking.

Good actions lead to good results, bad actions lead to bad results. What is is unethical there?

What is unethical, is that you are not taking into consideration the effect, within this grand scheme of causality, that the view of oneself as a marionette, would have.

Can the marionette, thinking of itself as a marionette, say to itself "I will not commit murder" ?

It also says to itself "I have no control over my actions"

[tiltbillings]

He did not. Since it denies moral responsibility, he condemn that sort of thinking.

Good actions lead to good results, bad actions lead to bad results. What is is unethical there?

Since what you are advocating is that we are naught more than falling dominoes or another way of putting it is that we are naught more than a ball of string unravelling, there is no choice, no moral responsibility.

[tiltbillings]

He did not. Since it denies moral responsibility, he condemn that sort of thinking.

Good actions lead to good results, bad actions lead to bad results. What is is unethical there?

What is unethical, is that you are not taking into consideration the effect, within this grand scheme of causality, that the view of oneself as a marionette, would have.

Can the marionette, thinking of itself as a marionette, say to itself "I will not commit murder" ?

It also says to itself "I have no control over my actions"

Following Alex's point of view, we have no control of our committing murder, which puts murder on the same level as attaining awakening - just things that happen to us without our input for which we have no responsibility.

[Alex123]

What is unethical, is that you are not taking into consideration the effect, within this grand scheme of causality, that the view of oneself as a marionette, would have.
Can the marionette, thinking of itself as a marionette, say to itself "I will not commit murder" ?
It also says to itself "I have no control over my actions"

Following Alex's point of view, we have no control of our committing murder, which puts murder on the same level as attaining awakening - just things that happen to us without our input for which we have no responsibility.

When one realizes that all things happen due to causes, and there are no really people, then if there is enough wisdom one will see the folly of getting angry.

When one realizes that past event has occured in only possible way that it could have occured, then one will not feel guilty and be stuck in the past "I should have done this instead of that."

If whatever happens now, happens the only way it ever could have happened given all the conditions - then one can train to be at peace with what is, which is the only possible reality. If you can't alter the ride, develop acceptance and equanimity rather than trying to hopelessly alter it.

When one fully sees that bad results follow bad actions like one falling domino pushing another domino making it fall, one will abstain from bad actions.

When one truly realizes the emptiness of the world, one will not have greed, anger or delusion to even think about committing bad deeds, and will develop dispassion and liberation from this bondage of conditionality.

[kirk5a]

I'm looking for something along the lines of beings as leaves in the wind, marionettes, billard balls, unrolling balls of string... did he teach that?

In VsM there is:

I asked about what the Buddha taught. These much later sources do not even purport to be the Buddha's words.

[Alex123]

I asked about what the Buddha taught.

Strict conditionality. If he knew the causes, then he would know all the effects given those causes.

"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that." - Ud 1.3
"the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes." - MN12

According to Ptsm found in Sutta Pitaka, Buddha had omniscient knowledge.


1. If Buddha has omniscience, ex: that choice 'X' will occur.
2. Choice 'X' must occur.
3. I cannot choose to do any action which would make it so that choice 'X' does not occur.
4. Therefore, there is no any other choice possible but choice 'X'.

[kirk5a]

I asked about what the Buddha taught.

"When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that." - Ud 1.3
"the Tathagata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future and present, with possibilities and with causes." - MN12

According to Ptsm found in Sutta Pitaka, Buddha had omniscient knowledge.

So that's it then. That's the entirety of what you're hanging all this on. No "leaves in the wind" there. No unrolling balls of string, no balls subjected to various forces, marionettes, falling dominos, and I don't see anything that says "You can't alter the ride"

[tiltbillings]

What is unethical, is that you are not taking into consideration the effect, within this grand scheme of causality, that the view of oneself as a marionette, would have.
Can the marionette, thinking of itself as a marionette, say to itself "I will not commit murder" ?
It also says to itself "I have no control over my actions"

Following Alex's point of view, we have no control of our committing murder, which puts murder on the same level as attaining awakening - just things that happen to us without our input for which we have no responsibility.

When one realizes that all things happen due to causes, and there are no really people, then if there is enough wisdom one will see the folly of getting angry.

Sure; no more responsibility and nothing you can do about it; just shut your eyes and take it, for what choice do you have? According to you, none. It is an ugly philosophy.