Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

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Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:03 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Rebirth is going to be a challenging belief- maybe the more challenging thing is trying to find something which doesn't entail any belief of any sort, at all.

with metta



Like the four noble truths? There not a belief system
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re:Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:00 pm

clw_uk wrote:Like the four noble truths? There [sic] not a belief system
Do you believe that?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:26 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Like the four noble truths? There [sic] not a belief system



Tilt -Do you believe that?



If they were a belief system then there would be no knowledge of them, I would just believe them

Belief and knowledge are different


So for me I know they are not a belief system, since I have knowledge of them


The idea of them as a belief system seems to go against the Buddha-way of "come and see"

Know for yourself dont just believe them
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Like the four noble truths? There [sic] not a belief system



Tilt -Do you believe that?



If they were a belief system then there would be no knowledge of them, I would just believe them

Belief and knowledge are different


So for me I know they are not a belief system, since I have knowledge of them


The idea of them as a belief system seems to go against the Buddha-way of "come and see"

Know for yourself dont just believe them
What surprises me is the rather unsophisicated approach here. If you had knowledge of the Four Noble Truths, you would be awakened. The FNT are tools, picked up to do a job. If there were no belief initially concerning the FNT, there would be no picking them up, there would be no ehipassiko, come and see.

Belief is not an end, but a tool to accomplish an end.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:10 pm

He already said it's not a belief. It's something that is experienced. What are you talking about. :cookoo:
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:18 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:He already said it's not a belief. It's something that is experienced. What are you talking about.
Just because Craig said the belief in the FNT is not a belief, I am supposed to believe that?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:25 pm

No, you can let go of attachment to belief, and stop obsessing about it. =) It ultimately doesn't matter whether you believe in the four noble truths, because it's like a raft that once you get to the other shore, you can let it go too. ;) Don't worry about believing, focus on the eightfold path.
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:29 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:No, you can let go of attachment to belief, and stop obsessing about it. =) It ultimately doesn't matter whether you believe in the four noble truths, because it's like a raft that once you get to the other shore, you can let it go too. ;) Don't worry about believing, focus on the eightfold path.



Tis a great shame to hold onto :(
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:33 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:No, you can let go of attachment to belief, and stop obsessing about it. =) It ultimately doesn't matter whether you believe in the four noble truths, because it's like a raft that once you get to the other shore, you can let it go too. ;) Don't worry about believing, focus on the eightfold path.
And who here is advocating attachment to or obsessing about belief?

Does it matter if one believes in the FNT? Probably, because if you didn't, you could not put them into practice. And one cannot let go of the raft too soon.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:44 pm

Suppose, monks, there is a man journeying on a road and he sees a vast expanse of water of which this shore is perilous and fearful, while the other shore is safe and free from danger. But there is no boat for crossing nor is there a bridge for going over from this side to the other. So the man thinks: 'This is a vast expanse of water; and this shore is perilous and fearful, but the other shore is safe and free from danger. There is, however, no boat here for crossing, nor a bridge for going over from this side to the other. Suppose I gather reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and bind them into a raft.' Now that man collects reeds, sticks, branches and foliage, and binds them into a raft. Carried by that raft, laboring with hands and feet, he safely crosses over to the other shore. Having crossed and arrived at the other shore, he thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not lift this raft on my head or put it on my shoulders, and go where I like?'

"What do you think about it, O monks? Will this man by acting thus, do what should be done with a raft?" — "No, Lord" — "How then, monks, would he be doing what ought to be done with a raft? Here, monks, having got across and arrived at the other shore, the man thinks: 'This raft, indeed, has been very helpful to me. Carried by it, and laboring with hands and feet, I got safely across to the other shore. Should I not pull it up now to the dry land or let it float in the water, and then go as I please?' By acting thus, monks, would that man do what should be done with a raft.

"In the same way, monks, have I shown to you the Teaching's similitude to a raft: as having the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of being clung to.

"You, O monks, who understand the Teaching's similitude to a raft, you should let go even (good) teachings, how much more false ones!

:anjali:
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby andre9999 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 10:49 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Does it matter if one believes in the FNT? Probably, because if you didn't, you could not put them into practice. And one cannot let go of the raft too soon.


Great... Another thread deteriorating into a discussion of semantics, full of harsh tones of speech, and way off topic.

For what it's worth, I didn't believe in the four noble truths when I started, and I'm still not 100% sure. They seemed to be worth a shot, so I tried them.

As for reincarnation/rebirth, I still don't know yet. Hell, I don't even call myself a Buddhist. I'm just trying to reduce my suffering and the suffering of the people I interact with, and it seems that following the path helps me in that goal.
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:14 pm

andrer9999 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Does it matter if one believes in the FNT? Probably, because if you didn't, you could not put them into practice. And one cannot let go of the raft too soon.


Great... Another thread deteriorating into a discussion of semantics, full of harsh tones of speech, and way off topic.
Maybe not.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 02, 2010 11:19 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:"You, O monks, who understand the Teaching's similitude to a raft, you should let go even (good) teachings, how much more false ones!
Do you believe that?

Also, as a matter of courtesy, when quoting a sutta, it should be given its proper citation, as MN22.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby Individual » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:10 am

What do you mean by believe? We might share a single literal definition but that word can bear different connotations.

It is good for one to have confidence in the truth; in this sense, one believes in the 4NT. It is not good, however, to arbitrarily pick certain views because they are pleasing to the ego, or to become attached and to try to spread one certain view to the exclusion of all others. :)
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 03, 2010 12:56 am

Individual wrote:What do you mean by believe? We might share a single literal definition but that word can bear different connotations.

It is good for one to have confidence in the truth; in this sense, one believes in the 4NT. It is not good, however, to arbitrarily pick certain views because they are pleasing to the ego, or to become attached and to try to spread one certain view to the exclusion of all others. :)
No one is talking about trying to "spread one certain view" or becoming attached to any particular view, but interestingly, taking the FNT seriously, one likely adopts the FNT because one hurts or is dissatisfied with one's present state: "I don't think this, I want it to end."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby ground » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:Belief is not an end, but a tool to accomplish an end.


:)

If we would always try to grasp an inherent truth of teachings before engaging in them we would never begin.

Kind regards
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:29 pm

Hi clw_UK,

I don't think the four noble truths are a belief system- as you say- you can see it for yourself. There is gradual deepening of the understanding of the four noble truths- true- but this is something anyone can access (I concede the time taken may vary). But in the case of finding proof of rebirth, it may never happen however hard one might try- so it helps to move forward with rebirth as belief- as tool, as Tilt mentioned.

with metta
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:33 am

rowyourboat wrote:Hi clw_UK,

There is gradual deepening of the understanding of the four noble truths- true- but this is something anyone can access (I concede the time taken may vary).


I think initially we have a personal connection with the Noble Truths, they somehow "ring true", probably based on our own experience of suffering. Based on that initial connection we begin to practice, and gradually our understanding and confidence develop.

Spiny
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby Skaffen » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:12 am

Seems to me the cart got before the horse with the question.

'Believing', implies a static frame of mind. You don't arrive at 'Truth', you journey through it.
Knowledge is mundane.
Understanding, implies good evaluation when applied to probability because it encompasses the inherent 'Uncertainty' - demonstrated by Einstein and later elaborated by Niels Bohr And Heisenberg in scientific circles.

There are 2 'Absolutes', nothing & infinity (God) - our Universe is the potential between the two (neither exist in our Universe), Evolution is the boundary between Chaos & Order...typified by Yin-Yang.
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Re: Must one "believe" in the Four Noble Truths?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:16 am

Skaffen wrote:Seems to me the cart got before the horse with the question.

'Believing', implies a static frame of mind. You don't arrive at 'Truth', you journey through it.
Knowledge is mundane.
Poor belief; has such a bad reputation. If belief in Buddhism is a tool for investigation, for practice, for inspiration, then there is not a thing static about it. Belief is, however, where one has to start.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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