Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Greetings,

The first noble truth is an obvious reality as is known to anyone who reflects upon it.

The second noble truth can be tested, and through it, great faith in the Buddha and Dhamma cultivated.

The third noble truth seems logical, but requires faith in the potentiality of nibbana... seen in the context of the first two it seems logically plausible.

The fourth noble truth, again, requires testing, requires faith that it continues to work beyond what one has presently experiences, but again, seems logically plausible as a path leading to the cessation of craving, and thus suffering.

Must one "believe" these things? Without wanting to get bogged in semantics, I think you've got to at least acknowledge them as plausible, and verifiable to the extent that one has tested them.

Metta,
Retro.

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

The first noble truth is an obvious reality as is known to anyone who reflects upon it.

The second noble truth can be tested, and through it, great faith in the Buddha and Dhamma cultivated.

The third noble truth seems logical, but requires faith in the potentiality of nibbana... seen in the context of the first two it seems logically plausible.

The fourth noble truth, again, requires testing, requires faith that it continues to work beyond what one has presently experiences, but again, seems logically plausible as a path leading to the cessation of craving, and thus suffering.

Metta,
Retro.

The FNT is certainly not a creed, and certainly, unlike a creed, the First NT starts with experiences that we all have, but until we have direct experiences of the rest, belief plays a part. Saying this, to me, is stating the painfully obvious, but maybe not.

Or ... one could find something of interest in the Buddha's Teachings and decide to set disbelief to one side, examine and test the Teaching, and eventually come to realise it is truth. No blind belief.

with metta
Chris

cooran wrote:Or ... one could find something of interest in the Buddha's Teachings and decide to set disbelief to one side, examine and test the Teaching, and eventually come to realise it is truth. No blind belief.

Which is why the Dhamma is different from the creed based religions in relationship to belief.

cooran wrote:Or ... one could find something of interest in the Buddha's Teachings and decide to set disbelief to one side, examine and test the Teaching, and eventually come to realise it is truth. No blind belief.

No blind belief, but still some degree of belief.

In order to examine and test the Teaching, one must first *believe* that it is worth the time and effort it takes to examine and test the Teachings. This is not a case of symantics, as anyone who has honestly tried to practice the Noble Eightfold Path will testify to the amount of time and effort that is required to do so. I think all of us would have to agree that if we are going to invest a significant amount of time and effort into any task we'd like to *believe* that it was a worthwhile investment.

At first we don't know if it will deliver what it promises or not, maybe it is a dead-end, we don't know if we don't try, it is a risk. An intelligent person only takes a risk if they believe that the reward verse the risk is in their favour.

For me it was a case of "sounds good, makes sense" and I felt a sense of resonance with the Buddha's Teachings. This encouraged me to take the risk of trying to put the Teachings into practice.

.[/quote]Poor belief; has such a bad reputation. If belief in Buddhism is a tool for investigation, for practice, for inspiration, then there is not a thing static about it. Belief is, however, where one has to start.[/quote]

Belief isn't a tool for investigation, practice or inspiration. - I think you may have confused belief with imagination with regard to the context you detail.

Belief is what you use when there can be no successful investigation, hence the strong religious connections. It is also used to put down difficult questions - all you have to do is believe in Jesus.

Nirvana is a moment of inspiration - in this context I know it and have experienced it, I will forever try to improve my understanding of it. To simply believe it (2nd hand) is not a valid, human intelligent choice.

retrofuturist wrote:The first noble truth is an obvious reality as is known to anyone who reflects upon it.

The second noble truth can be tested, and through it, great faith in the Buddha and Dhamma cultivated.

The third noble truth seems logical, but requires faith in the potentiality of nibbana... seen in the context of the first two it seems logically plausible.

The fourth noble truth, again, requires testing, requires faith that it continues to work beyond what one has presently experiences, but again, seems logically plausible as a path leading to the cessation of craving, and thus suffering.

Hello,

maybe the Gavampati Sutta (SN 56, 36) is of interest here (unfortunately, I can't find an English translation of that Sutta at the moment). It says that if you understand one of the noble truths you understand all of them . So if the first noble truth is "obvious" to me, no faith should be required in the second, third and fourth noble truth. While it is true and not so hard to see that the world and our lives are full of suffering, the first noble truth is (also) about the five aggregates and to recognize them in one's experience (instead of just holding views about them) seems not so easy.

All the best!

Skaffen wrote: Nirvana is a moment of inspiration

A moment of inspiration is just a moment of inspiration.

If we're going to believe something before we know it, at least believe the actual definition.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is literally Buddha 101 - it's his first sermon after awakening.

kirk5a wrote:

Skaffen wrote: Nirvana is a moment of inspiration

A moment of inspiration is just a moment of inspiration.

If we're going to believe something before we know it, at least believe the actual definition.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is literally Buddha 101 - it's his first sermon after awakening.

Nirvana is 'releasing breath', it is in the moments when the pieces fall into place with no friction and the result is even more than you could have anticipated, a new tier in understanding....it's not a once in a lifetime rarity, not if you are making any process.

Skaffen wrote: Nirvana is 'releasing breath', it is in the moments when the pieces fall into place with no friction and the result is even more than you could have anticipated, a new tier in understanding....it's not a once in a lifetime rarity, not if you are making any process.

If in such moments as you are describing, there is the complete cessation of craving/clinging-mind, then it's Nirvana. Otherwise it's just something you'd like to "believe" is Nirvana.

Belief is, however, where one has to start

In my experience, Tilt, that isn't true. I began in disbelief, distrust, suffering, etc. If it weren't for the Buddha's advice to the Kalamas, I wouldn't have undertaken to "test the system" to see if it worked. I'd already had decades of what I'll kindly call religious nonsense, all of which failed, so I was primed for Buddhism to be just another failure of promises. I had begun to believe the pop comment that, "life sucks and then you die." - that suffering would always win out in the end, no escape from it.

What drove me to try Buddhism was wanting relief from the suffering. What drove me to work at it was the advice to the Kalamas (badly summarized here) to not take the teachings on blind faith or the words of others, but to try it - come and see. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html for the Sutta in English.

So I started trying to live the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. In time I discovered that the Buddha was right, the Dhamma is true - it works. Suffering was defeated when I worked the program. Not only that but suffering was not all-powerful and destined to win - that was a very freeing experience. I began to understand some words I had read in Dhamma, like unbound, and liberation., and I could see how that could really be possible!

Two years later (almost) and I am still practicing. I've added things to my practice, like taking refuge daily and Metta meditation to "incline my mind," mindfulness and the Brahma Viharas, and emptiness practice. I have begun to call myself a Buddhist even though I don't accept everything that's out there. But I practice the Buddha's teachings - so what else would I write in the blank on the form I'm filling out?

Belief eventually became part of the picture, but it was far down the road from the starting point.

Hoo

kirk5a wrote:

Skaffen wrote: Nirvana is 'releasing breath', it is in the moments when the pieces fall into place with no friction and the result is even more than you could have anticipated, a new tier in understanding....it's not a once in a lifetime rarity, not if you are making any progress.

If in such moments as you are describing, there is the complete cessation of craving/clinging-mind, then it's Nirvana. Otherwise it's just something you'd like to "believe" is Nirvana.

'complete cessation' is not possible, you will always be stuck with your desire to eliminate desire and suffering. The particular terminology you use suggests an attachment to others poor judgement (3rd NT...'eradication of desire', is not possible, suffering can't be Truth if it is possible to contravene, so if you want 3rd you have to sacrifice 1st - probably clear 4 quite easily when you get out the loop.

When that last piece fits into the puzzle there is a short burst of joyous understanding that causes you to breathe out.......Aaaaahhhhaaa, so that's how it works! - That's the sensation of enlightenment, when it creates a new vantage point for you to see more in more detail it is profound.

Hi All

Clearly some degree of 'belief' is required to even think of exploring the dhamma, without rejecting it outright as plain nonsense.

With maturity in the practice as deeper and deeper aspects of the dhamma are seen to be true- this belief/confidence grows so that one becomes inclined to believe even deeper more difficult Truths as proclaimed by the Buddha. So this belief becomes stronger the deeper one traverses along this path.

with metta

Skaffen wrote:
'complete cessation' is not possible, you will always be stuck with your desire to eliminate desire and suffering.

The Buddha said the 3rd NT is "the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving."

So... are you saying that is not possible?

Thanks for the experience report. Color me skeptical re: "the sensation of enlightenment." Sounds to me like working through some kind of intellectual "puzzle." But that's your business, you could see what an experienced Buddhist meditation teacher has to say about that.

Guy wrote:In order to examine and test the Teaching, one must first *believe* that it is worth the time and effort it takes to examine and test the Teachings. This is not a case of symantics, as anyone who has honestly tried to practice the Noble Eightfold Path will testify to the amount of time and effort that is required to do so. I think all of us would have to agree that if we are going to invest a significant amount of time and effort into any task we'd like to *believe* that it was a worthwhile investment.

The same could be said of any undertaking that takes time and effort.

I might believe that studying towards a university degree is a worthwhile investment and worth the time and effort, practicing the 4NT is much the same in this regard, however I'm sure nobody would suggest one must believe in a univiersity education in the same way one mught believe in God for example.