Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:43 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

If moha ends momentarily (because it is replaced by panna), sankharas do not cease, vinnana does not cease etc.

That structural and permanent cessation (or identification and eradication of the house-builder, if you prefer) only comes about through the cessation of avijja.

Metta,
Retro. :)
That is telling me, not showing with suttas.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:49 am

Greetings Tilt,

I could show you through the absence of any dependent origination suttas to use moha in the context of dependent origination, and I could show you that every usage of moha in the suttas is outside the explicit context of dependent origination/cessation.

Yet, I suspect you already know that to be the case and do not find that logic sufficiently convincing... therefore, since it's a case of omission, rather than what's explicitly said, it would involve trawling through the entire Sutta Pitaka simply to make this point, and I trust you do not expect that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:56 am

retrofuturist wrote:, it would involve trawling through the entire Sutta Pitaka simply to make this point, and I trust you do not expect that.
I would expect nothing less.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:07 am

retrofuturist wrote:If moha ends momentarily (because it is replaced by panna), sankharas do not cease, vinnana does not cease etc.
The key to answering the question I am asking is here. Basically, explain what you mean here and what texts support this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:07 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:, it would involve trawling through the entire Sutta Pitaka simply to make this point, and I trust you do not expect that.
I would expect nothing less.

Surely, you know as well as I do that this is impractical. Rather, perhaps, consider it yourself when you read suttas in the future and observe which term is being used when.

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:If moha ends momentarily (because it is replaced by panna), sankharas do not cease, vinnana does not cease etc.
The key to answering the question I am asking is here. Basically, explain what you mean here and what texts support this.

Again, it's a case by omission.

Conversely, show me a sutta that says a mindstate (or action, if you'd prefer sutta terminology) rooted in panna (i.e. temporarily devoid of moha) does these things? You could come back with a sutta quotation about the arupa jhanas, but that's not permanent, it's dynamic... moha returns afterwards because avijja has not been destroyed.

Conversely, show me a sutta where avijja is removed and then somehow returns in some capacity - there are none. Arahants do not regress - at least according to Theravada and the Sutta Pitaka they don't. Alternatively, suttas demonstrating this dynamic relapse in relation to moha can be found.

Such is the distinction between the temporary placation of moha, versus the structural and permanent eradication of avijja.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby cooran » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:59 am

Hello all,

Sutta references given within the dictionary definitions.

Moha
Moha [fr. muh, see muyhati; cp. Sk. moha & Vedic mogha] stupidity, dullness of mind & soul, delusion, bewilderment, infatuation D iii.146, 175, 182, 214, 270; Vin iv.144, 145; Sn 56, 74, 160, 638, 847; Vbh 208, 341, 391, 402; Pug 16; Tikp 108, 122, 259. -- Defd as "dukkhe aññāṇaŋ etc., moha pamoha, sammoha, avijj' ogha etc.," by Nd2 99 & Vbh 362; as "muyhanti tena, sayaŋ vā muyhati, muyhana -- mattaŋ eva vā tan ti moho" and "cittassa andha -- bhāva -- lakkhaṇo, aññāṇalakkhaṇo vā" at Vism 468. -- Often coupled with rāga & dosa as one of the 3 cardinal affects of citta, making a man unable to grasp the higher truths and to enter the Path: see under rāga (& Nd2 p. 237, s. v. rāga where the wide range of application of this set is to be seen). Cp. the 3 fires: rāg -- aggi, dos -- aggi, moh -- aggi It 92; D iii.217 also rāga -- kkhaya, dosa˚, moha˚ VbhA 31 sq. -- On combn with rāga, lobha & dosa see dosa2 and lobha. -- On term see also Dhs trsl. §§ 33, 362, 441; Cpd 16, 18, 41, 113, 146. -- See further D i.80 (samoha -- cittaŋ); Nd1 15, 16 (with lobha & dosa); VvA 14; PvA 3. -- amoha absence of bewilderment Vbh 210 (+alobha, adosa; as the 3 kusala -- mūlāni: cp. mūla 3), 402 (id., as kusala -- hetu). -- Cp. pa˚, sam˚.
-- antara (personal) quality of bewilderment (lit. having m. inside) Sn 478 (taken by C. as "cause of m.," i. e. ˚kāraṇa, ˚paccaya SnA 411; cp. antara=kāraṇa under antara I 2 b.). -- ussada quality of dullness Nd1 72, 413. -- kkhaya destruction of infatuation Vbh 73; VbhA 51. -- carita one whose habit is infatuation Nett 90 (+rāgacarita & dosacarita). -- tama the darkness of bewilderment MA 1. -- dhamma anything that is bewildering or infatuating Sn 276. -- pāruta covered or obstructed by delusion Pv iv.334. -- magga being on the road of infatuation Sn 347. -- salla the sting of bewilderment Nd1 59.
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... ali.146850

Avijjā: Ignorance, nescience, the blindness of not knowing, is synonymous with confusion moha (see mūla), is the primary & deepest root of all evil and suffering in the world, veiling man's mental eyes and preventing him from seeing the true nature of things. It is the confusion that fools beings by making life appear to them as permanent, happy, substantial and beautiful and preventing them from seeing that everything in reality is impermanent, liable to suffering, void of 'I' and 'mine', and basically impure see: vipallāsa. Ignorance is defined as not knowing the Four Noble Truths, namely, suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the way to its ceasing see: S. XII, 4.
As ignorance is the foundation of all life-maintaining actions, and the root of all evil and suffering, it therefore stands first in the formula of Dependent Origination paticca-samuppāda. But for that reason, says Vis.M XVII, 36f ignorance should not be regarded as the causeless root-cause of the world, since is not causeless. The cause of it is stated thus: With the arising of mental fermentations āsava there is the arising of ignorance M. 9. But there is a figurative way in which it can be treated as a root-cause; namely, when it is made to serve as a starting point in an exposition of the Round of Existence... As it is said: No first beginning of ignorance can be perceived, Bhikkhus, before which ignorance was not, and after which it came to be. But it can be perceived that ignorance has its specific causal condition idappaccaya A. X, 61. The same statement is made A. X, 62 about the craving for existence bhava-tanhā (see tanhā). Craving and ignorance are called the outstanding causes or creators of the kamma that lead to unhappy and happy destinies Vis.M XVII, 38.
As ignorance still exists though in a very refined way until the attainment of Arahatship, it is counted as the last of the 10 mental chains samyojana, which bind beings to the cycle of rebirths. As the first two roots of evil, greed and hate (see: mūla), are on their part rooted in ignorance, consequently all disadvantageous states of mind are inseparably bound up with ignorance. Ignorance or confusion is the most obstinate , dense, deep, subtle, hidden and fearsome of the three roots of evil.
Ignorance is one of the fermentations āsava and latent tendencies anusaya. It is often called a hindrance nīvarana e.g. in S.XV, 3; A.X, 61 but does not appear together with the usual list of five hindrances. It is however immanent in them all, yet especially dominant in doubt & uncertainty vicikicchā.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#avijjā

with metta
Chris
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:37 am

What came first the chicken or the egg?

I mean what substantive difference does it make to ones practice if the two terms are considered synonymous as opposed to there being considered a causal relationship between the two terms?
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:, it would involve trawling through the entire Sutta Pitaka simply to make this point, and I trust you do not expect that.
I would expect nothing less.

Surely, you know as well as I do that this is impractical.
That's a joke.

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:If moha ends momentarily (because it is replaced by panna), sankharas do not cease, vinnana does not cease etc.
The key to answering the question I am asking is here. Basically, explain what you mean here and what texts support this.

Again, it's a case by omission.
I am not following this at all.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:36 am

when there is ignorance of the four noble truths [III/H/i] (a subtle form of delusion, the most basic root of unskillfulness), the feeling that results from kamma gives rise to craving (a subtle form of greed and aversion), clinging, and becoming; and these, in turn, form the conditions for further kamma.http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/wings/part1.html
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:41 am

What I am not following is the "If moha ends momentarily (because it is replaced by panna), sankharas do not cease, vinnana does not cease etc"
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:44 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:What I am not following is the "If moha ends momentarily (because it is replaced by panna), sankharas do not cease, vinnana does not cease etc"

Right. The dependent cessation sequence starts with the complete eradication of avijja, not moha.

Moha is a product of avijja.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:Moha is a product of avijja.
And you know I am going to ask which sutta says that. Wait fot it, (highlight and paste) here it is: which sutta says that?

Ven Thanisarro might not agree with that. when there is ignorance of the four noble truths [III/H/i] (a subtle form of delusion, - quoted above.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:53 am

Greetings Tilt,

Maybe not, but Ven. Gunaratna would agree.

When there is ignorance there is confusion. That is another word. Ignorance is called avijja. Confusion is called moha. When we do not know the truth, we build up theories. We come up with all kind of theories. Theories regarding the world, the self. All the theories in the world are based on these two factors. What are the two factors? The belief in self and about the world. These theories confuse us and that is called moha. avijja is one thing, moha is another. Moha is the result of avijja. avijja is not knowing the Four Noble Truths.


http://www.bhavanasociety.org/resource/ ... le_truths/

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Maybe not, but Ven. Gunaratna would agree.

When there is ignorance there is confusion. That is another word. Ignorance is called avijja. Confusion is called moha. When we do not know the truth, we build up theories. We come up with all kind of theories. Theories regarding the world, the self. All the theories in the world are based on these two factors. What are the two factors? The belief in self and about the world. These theories confuse us and that is called moha. avijja is one thing, moha is another. Moha is the result of avijja. avijja is not knowing the Four Noble Truths.


http://www.bhavanasociety.org/resource/ ... le_truths/

Metta,
Retro. :)
When could also say, just as easily, that where there is delusion there is ignorance. I am with Bhante T on this rather than Bhante G, but I am still waiting for the sutta back up.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:02 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:When could also say, just as easily, that where there is delusion there is ignorance.

And that statement would be true.

Yet "where there is ignorance, there is delusion" would not be necessarily be correct.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:When could also say, just as easily, that where there is delusion there is ignorance.

And that statement would be true. Yet "where there is ignorance, there is delusion" would not be necessarily be correct.
For example?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:11 am

For example, a Christian may do something motivated by generosity and love. These actions are rooted in non-moha (non-delusion). Yet, this hypothetical Christian is completely oblivious to the Four Noble Truths (avijja) and has not fully penetrated them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:20 am

Greetings Tilt,

SN 20.1 - Bodhi translation.

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed one was dwelling at Savatthi in Jet's Grove, Anathapindika's Park... There the Blessed One said this:

"Bhikkhus, just as all the rafters of a peaked house lead to the roof peak and converge upon the roof peak, and all are removed when the roof peak is removed, so too all unwholesome states are rooted in ignorance and converge upon ignorance, and are all uprooted when ignorance is uprooted. Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: 'We will dwell diligently.' Thus you should train yourselves."


The same is never said of moha being uprooted.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:23 am

retrofuturist wrote:For example, a Christian may do something motivated by generosity and love. These actions are rooted in non-moha (non-delusion). Yet, this hypothetical Christian is completely oblivious to the Four Noble Truths (avijja) and has not fully penetrated them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Ah, but there is still a notion of self (immortal soul) and self writ big, god in the mix. In other words, delusion.

[The Buddha asks:] What do you think: does deludion exist?

"Yes."

Well, I call it ignorance; that is the meaning of the word [delusion]. Is not this deluded man ignorant enough to kill, [and do all sort of really bad things]?"

"Yes."
- AN I 194 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Kind of looks like the Buddha defined one by the other.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:26 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

SN 20.1 - Bodhi translation.

Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed one was dwelling at Savatthi in Jet's Grove, Anathapindika's Park... There the Blessed One said this:

"Bhikkhus, just as all the rafters of a peaked house lead to the roof peak and converge upon the roof peak, and all are removed when the roof peak is removed, so too all unwholesome states are rooted in ignorance and converge upon ignorance, and are all uprooted when ignorance is uprooted. Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: 'We will dwell diligently.' Thus you should train yourselves."


The same is never said of moha being uprooted.


"That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana." SN IV 251 and IV 321

"The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship." SN IV 359

"Whoever frees himself from the passions of lust, hatred, and delusion, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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