Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:29 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
"That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana." SN IV 251 and IV 321

"The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship." SN IV 359

"Whoever frees himself from the passions of lust, hatred, and delusion, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57

Of course this is so... because the triplet of greed, hatred and delusion all rely on avijja as their root. With the complete removal of avijja comes arahantship (which includes, of course, the non-arising of moha)

Avijja Sutta wrote:The Blessed One said, "Monks, ignorance is the leader in the attainment of unskillful qualities, followed by lack of conscience and lack of concern. In a unknowledgeable person, immersed in ignorance, wrong view arises. In one of wrong view, wrong resolve arises. In one of wrong resolve, wrong speech... In one of wrong speech, wrong action... In one of wrong action, wrong livelihood... In one of wrong livelihood, wrong effort... In one of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness... In one of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration arises.

Source: http://www.oocities.com/upasakha/avijjasutta.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:32 am

Nanananda wrote:Out of the three roots of evil — greed (lobha), hate (dosa), and delusion (moha) — the first two indicate the polarization of those psychological forces known as "formations" (sankhaaraa). Formations themselves spring from delusion or ignorance which manifests itself primarily as personality-views. "Herein, monks, the uninstructed ordinary man... looks upon form as self. That very 'looking upon' (samanupassanaa), monks, is a formation (sankhaaro)" (S III 96). - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... tml#fnt-17 (My emphasis.)
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:39 am

Greetings Tilt,

It's very imprecise though... what does he mean by "or"?

Inclusive OR? Exclusive OR? Equivalent/synonymous OR?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:43 am

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Abandon one quality, monks, and I guarantee you non-return. Which one quality? Abandon delusion as the one quality, and I guarantee you non-return."

The delusion with which
beings go to a bad destination,
confused:
from rightly discerning that delusion,
those who see clearly
let go.
Letting go,
they never come to this world
again.
- Iti 1.3

No one other thing
so obstructs people
that they wander on, day & night,
as when they're ensnared
with delusion.
But those who, letting go of delusion,
shatter the mass of darkness,
wander no further.
Their cause isn't found.
- Iti 1.14
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:46 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

It's very imprecise though... what does he mean by "or"?

Inclusive OR? Exclusive OR? Equivalent/synonymous OR?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Since we have already seen the Buddha defining delusion as ignorance, "Equivalent/synonymous OR" would be the case.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:47 am

Greetings Tilt,

Thanks.

Iti 1.3, which you quoted, shows that eradicating moha results in non-return.

Other suttas teach that eradicating avijja results in arahantship.

Different, meaning that "Since we have already seen the Buddha defining delusion as ignorance" is incorrect - a mis-reading.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Thanks.

Iti 1.3, which you quoted, shows that eradicating moha results in non-return.

Other suttas teach that eradicating avijja results in arahantship.
Arahantship and nibbana are defined as the desrtuction of delusion.

Different, meaning that "Since we have already seen the Buddha defining delusion as ignorance" is incorrect - a mis-reading.
Not that you have shown.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:54 am

Greetings Tilt,

Arahantship and nibbana are defined as the desrtuction of delusion.

Arahantship involves the destruction of a great many unwholesome things - fetters, hindrances etc. As per SN 20.1, quoted earlier, "all unwholesome states are rooted in ignorance and converge upon ignorance, and are all uprooted when ignorance is uprooted" so of course nibbana and arahantship involve the destruction of moha... but destruction of moha isn't what causes nibbana and arahantship. Your Iti quote demonstrates this quite clearly. By reading them as completely equal terms, you disregard the causal sequencing entirely.

Not that you have shown.

That's your opinion - not mine. How do you account for the destruction of moha (without the arahant-inducing destruction of ignorance) only being equivalent to non-return? How can you maintain, in spite of that, that they're the same?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:18 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Arahantship and nibbana are defined as the desrtuction of delusion.

Arahantship involves the destruction of a great many unwholesome things - fetters, hindrances etc. As per SN 20.1, quoted earlier, "all unwholesome states are rooted in ignorance and converge upon ignorance, and are all uprooted when ignorance is uprooted" so of course nibbana and arahantship involve the destruction of moha... but destruction of moha isn't what causes nibbana and arahantship. Your Iti quote demonstrates this quite clearly.
The basic, fundamental defintion of nibbana, asankhata, arahantship is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion, which unpacked entails all of that other stuff. Iti 1 3 points to non-return, but Iti 1 14 points to nibbana. Why the difference? Damdifino.

Not that you have shown.

That's your opinion - not mine.
My opinion is grounded in the text I quoted.


The Tathagata, O monks, who is arahant, supremely enlightened, is free from lust, free from hate, is free from delusion, and is not liable to fear, terror, fright or flight." - SN 11.3
Note that the Tatahgata is not defined as free from ignorance, but as being free from delusion. These terms - delusion and ignorance - are essentially equivalent. It is not unlike talking about the human being in terms of the khandhas or paticcasamuppada.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby Aloka » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:20 am

Sorry but I'm getting rather confused reading all of this !

Could I just ask if my assumption (at the beginning of the thread somewhere) that ignorance and delusion are the same thing was correct or incorrect, please ?



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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:29 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:The basic, fundamental defintion of nibbana, asankhata, arahantship is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion, which unpacked entails all of that other stuff. Iti 1 3 points to non-return, but Iti 1 14 points to nibbana. Why the difference? Damdifino.

I would suggest it's because Iti 1.14 involves "shatter[ing] the mass of darkness", where the darkness is avijja, and the shattering is related to the attainment of arahantship. Vijja is often associated with light, lamps etc.

tiltbillings wrote:
The Tathagata, O monks, who is arahant, supremely enlightened, is free from lust, free from hate, is free from delusion, and is not liable to fear, terror, fright or flight." - SN 11.3
Note that the Tatahgata is not defined as free from ignorance, but as being free from delusion.

Again... it's that triplet of lobha, dosa and moha... all dependent on avijja for their existence.

tiltbillings wrote:These terms - delusion and ignorance - are essentially equivalent. It is not unlike talking about the human being in terms of the khandhas or paticcasamuppada.

Well, they appear in different sutta lists, their respective eradication leads to different destinations and so on... so if you choose for simplicity's sake to regard them as equal, then you sacrifice the potential to understand their differences. That's your choice, I guess... but if others wish to understand the differences and the relationship between these two terms, I think that's positive. I think Blackbird was spot on when he said, "I think ignorance and delusion are two separate things. The removal of the former is precipitated by a long and steady removal of the latter".

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:30 am

Aloka wrote:Sorry but I'm getting rather confused reading all of this !

Could I just ask if my assumption (at the beginning of the thread somewhere) that ignorance and delusion are the same thing was correct or incorrect, please ?
The Theravada tradition pretty treats them as the same thing, or different ways of talking about the same thing, and this is supported by the suttas. Do a search on ACCESS TO INSIGHT using the two words delusion and ignorance in the search box and the over all impression is that the two words are used almost interchangeably.

Now, it would interesting to see a careful textual analysis of how these two words are used. Clearly one is used in one context and the other in a different context, but we can also find them used frequently in essentially identical contexts.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:39 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:The basic, fundamental defintion of nibbana, asankhata, arahantship is the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion, which unpacked entails all of that other stuff. Iti 1 3 points to non-return, but Iti 1 14 points to nibbana. Why the difference? Damdifino.

I would suggest it's because Iti 1.14 involves "shatter[ing] the mass of darkness", where the darkness is avijja, and the shattering is related to the attainment of arahantship. Vijja is often associated with light, lamps etc.
This would only make my point in that the word ignorance is not used, but delusion is.

Again... it's that triplet of lobha, dosa and moha... all dependent on avijja for their existence.
If you quoted a text to support that claim, I missed it.

tiltbillings wrote:These terms - delusion and ignorance - are essentially equivalent. It is not unlike talking about the human being in terms of the khandhas or paticcasamuppada.

Well, they appear in different sutta lists, their respective eradication leads to different destinations
Only in one text that I have seen. The majority point to the overcoming of delusion as being definitional of nibbana.

and so on... so if you choose for simplicity's sake to regard them as equal, then you sacrifice the potential to understand their differences. That's your choice, I guess...
Burn/snap.

but if others wish to understand the differences and the relationship between these two terms, I think that's positive. I think Blackbird was spot on when he said, "I think ignorance and delusion are two separate things. The removal of the former is precipitated by a long and steady removal of the latter".
But neither of you have really given any solid textual support for that claim. And then we do have that inconvenient text that says the meaning of delusion is ignorance.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:52 am

"He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because, with the ending of delusion, he is devoid of delusion, I tell you. - MN 1
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:04 pm

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Abandon one quality, monks, and I guarantee you non-return. Which one quality? Abandon delusion as the one quality, and I guarantee you non-return."

The delusion with which
beings go to a bad destination,
confused:
from rightly discerning that delusion,
those who see clearly
let go.
Letting go,
they never come to this world
again.
- Iti 1. 3


This can be better understood in this context:
"In this community of monks there are monks who, with the wasting away of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who — on returning only once more to this world — will make an ending to stress: such are the monks in this community of monks. - MN 118
The operative word here is, of course, attenuation.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby Aloka » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:54 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:Sorry but I'm getting rather confused reading all of this !

Could I just ask if my assumption (at the beginning of the thread somewhere) that ignorance and delusion are the same thing was correct or incorrect, please ?
The Theravada tradition pretty treats them as the same thing, or different ways of talking about the same thing, and this is supported by the suttas......


Thank you

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby pilgrim » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:35 am

Reviving an old thread as i've been reading up on sankharas and understand that there is a subtle difference between Avijja ( which I'll call Ignorance) and Moha ( Delusion). The difference results in what we generally call good and bad kamma.

Every time we do something, we create sankharas. When we do something unwholesome (akusala), clearly we act out of Avijja which includes Moha and create unwholesome sankharas or apunnaabhi sankharas. But when we do something wholesome (kusala), there still is Avijja as we are not enlightened, but there is no Moha. In this case we create punnaabhi sankharas.
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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:36 am

Greetings,

But when we do something wholesome (kusala), there still is Avijja as we are not enlightened, but there is no Moha. In this case we create punnaabhi sankharas.

Indeed. As it was three and a half years before this topic was bumped.

The Dhamma is indeed timeless...

8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:57 pm

Avijjā may take first place in the later development of paṭiccasamuppāda in the nidāna system. But this was not always so.

In the vibhaṅga on the classic 12 nidāna system (SN.12.2), we read that avijjā is ignorance of the 4-NT. But avijjā did not always serve in explaining this first principle condition of dukkha.

In the Discourse on Dual Realisations (Sn. 3.12), avijjā comes third on the list, and after ‘taking up’ (P. upadhi, synonymous with upādāna) as a factor for the arising of dukkha.

With reference to this sutta in Sn., the culprit of dukkha is given as:

    “Whoever does not directly know (nappajānanti) dukkha, the coming into existence of dukkha, and where all dukkha entirely ceases without remainder; therefore does not know the path leading to the quieting of dukkha.”

Here, 'no direct knowledge' (nappajānanti) replaces avijjā for ‘ignorance’. In the next line we read the explanation for this nature of dukkha as :

    “Inferior in release of thoughts (cetovimuttihīnā), and without release through wisdom; an end cannot be made of this continuous cycle to birth and aging.”

It is in the third dyad that avijjā is given as the result or outcome of the above nappajānanti, cetovimuttihīnā etc. as ones mental recidivism in saṃsāra:

    “Whoever turns this continuous cycle of birth and death (jātimaraṇasaṃsāraṃ), again and again, go to just this ignorance (avijjāyeva sā gati), in the present or another existence.”

Next in this dyad, the Tathāgata explains avijjā in the following:

    “Indeed this ignorance is a great delusion (Avijjā hāyaṃ mahāmoho); because of this one is well attached for a long time. But those beings gone to knowledge do not come to renewed existence.”

This indicating avijjā and moha as not only synonymous, but also indicating that many of these adjectives for what we render as ignorance, delusion etc., were in the early stage of the Tathāgata’s career considered a little more plaint than in their place as tenets of the doctrine on causality we find in the later Nikāyas.
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

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Re: Ignorance/avijjā delusion/moha

Postby waterchan » Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:49 pm

Vijjā means knowledge. In modern usage it can be used to mean knowledge and skill in the arts. In modern Burma, subjects like geography, history, language, and arts are often collectively referred to as "vijjā" subjects.

So Avijjā means not-knowledge. Moha is commonly translated as "delusion" in English but in some cultures, for example in the Burmese Theravada traditions, the monks often translate it as "not knowing". The Burmese monks seem to prefer the term avijjā when speaking in Abhidhamma terms.

So yeah, I'd say avijjā and moha are virtually synonomous.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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