What inherits the Karma if there is Anatta?

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clw_uk
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Re: What inherits the Karma if there is Anatta?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:15 pm

Viscid wrote:
How the concept of rebirth after death crept into Buddhism is difficult to explain, and we need not concern ourselves with it.


Pshaw.

Buddhism teaches literal rebirth, clearly and definitely. To deny the existence of a birth conditioned by previous existences after the physical death of the body is to distance yourself from the fundamental assumptions of Buddhism. If you adopt this view, you are reinterpreting the suttas to conform with your own beliefs.

There is no reason to not just be inspired by Buddhism, while having your own views and using your own insight. You don't need to quell doubt in your beliefs by relying on religious authority, religious authority which may be accessible only by asserting that The Buddha didn't REALLY teach that which you wish him to have not taught.



Have answered you on the great rebirth debate thread
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: What inherits the Karma if there is Anatta?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:20 pm

Hi Viscid,
Viscid wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Viscid,
Viscid wrote: I liken the rebirth of ourselves to the rebirth of stars. ...

Are there any statements in the Suttas to support that point of view?

Nope. But I'd rather consider rebirth to be something which can be described in terms of realistic dynamic systems rather than some simplified religious tit for tat model. We can see how the ideas we have and the behaviour we exhibit is a composition of those that have come before us. I share a lot of the same tastes and mannerisms as my parents. I have an inquisitiveness and systematic, investigative nature which was derived from writings of those in the Age of Enlightenment. I dream of travel and discovery of the unknown because it was popularized by the Romanticists. I love to talk of myself because of the egostistical narcissism of the forerunning baby boomer generation.

Apologies for that... :tongue:
Viscid wrote:
How can you see these connections and say that who you are now was simply a result of an individual which preceeded you? We've coalesced, like our sun from the gaseous material in the stellar nursery, from the behaviour and ideas of those who have come before us. There is no immortal soul.

I don't think anyone is denying that there are other causes and conditions apart from kamma.

So what do you think the Buddha adds to that?

:anjali:
Mike

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What inherits the Karma if there is Anatta?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:25 pm

Three Kinds of Wrong View

Among the bogus Buddhas, Purāna Kassapa preached that killing, stealing, and other unwholesome deeds were not demeritorious, and that alms-giving and other wholesome deeds were not meritorious. This belief, which rejects the principle of kamma, is called “akiriya ditthi” or no-effect belief.

Ajita, another heretical leader, held that deeds had no effect because after death there was no rebirth , since life ends at death. This belief is called nihilism (natthika ditthi).

Another heretical leader, Makkhali Gosāla, preached that no cause existed for the defilement and misery of beings, or for their purity and happiness. This no-cause belief is called “ahetuka ditthi.” This belief also rejected the principle of kamma.

The last of the heretics, Pakudha Kaccāyana, said that all beings were composed of the four elements, and happiness (sukha), pain (dukkha), and life (jīva). These seven elements could not be annihilated by any force, so no deeds could affect this composite entity. Therefore, neither demerit nor merit had any meaning, he added.
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Re: What inherits the Karma if there is Anatta?

Postby Individual » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:27 pm

Viscid wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Viscid,
Viscid wrote: I liken the rebirth of ourselves to the rebirth of stars. ...

Are there any statements in the Suttas to support that point of view?

:anjali:
Mike


Nope. But I'd rather consider rebirth to be something which can be described in terms of realistic dynamic systems rather than some simplified religious tit for tat model.

See the Agganna Sutta.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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Viscid
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Re: What inherits the Karma if there is Anatta?

Postby Viscid » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:29 pm

Individual wrote:See the Agganna Sutta.

What of it?

Why not just argue based on the view in this Sutta rather than saying "Read this, read that. It's all explained there." What is YOUR interpretation? What is YOUR view?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Re: What inherits the Karma if there is Anatta?

Postby Individual » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:38 pm

Viscid wrote:
Individual wrote:See the Agganna Sutta.

What of it?

Why not just argue based on the view in this Sutta rather than saying "Read this, read that. It's all explained there." What is YOUR interpretation? What is YOUR view?

A literal reading of the Buddhist creation story (of the Agganna sutta) seems ludicrous.

A liberal, non-literal reading seems like it could fit with some kind of novel theory of cosmic evolution.

Some scholars say the sutta is a joke. Maybe it isn't, but interpreting it that way is silly enough that it should be.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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Re: What inherits the Karma if there is Anatta?

Postby Viscid » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:52 pm

Individual wrote:
Viscid wrote:
Individual wrote:See the Agganna Sutta.

What of it?

Why not just argue based on the view in this Sutta rather than saying "Read this, read that. It's all explained there." What is YOUR interpretation? What is YOUR view?

A literal reading of the Buddhist creation story (of the Agganna sutta) seems ludicrous.

A liberal, non-literal reading seems like it could fit with some kind of novel theory of cosmic evolution.

Some scholars say the sutta is a joke. Maybe it isn't, but interpreting it that way is silly enough that it should be.


Sure, maybe an attempt to dissuade literal interpretations of the suttas.
Maybe it was meant as a slight against any attempt at understanding the origin of things at all.
Maybe it's meant to be metaphorical and poetic.
Maybe it's a folk tale which was integrated into Buddhism.

Regardless, you can rely on the authority of the suttas blindly, or use your own insight to figure out how concepts such as rebirth and kamma function. Saying that it's not very important is both true and pragmatic, but if you are going to dream up answers anyway, don't form them solely upon vague indiscriminable forces.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Re: What inherits the Karma if there is Anatta?

Postby Individual » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:59 pm

Viscid wrote:Sure, maybe an attempt to dissuade literal interpretations of the suttas.
Maybe it was meant as a slight against any attempt at understanding the origin of things at all.
Maybe it's meant to be metaphorical and poetic.
Maybe it's a folk tale which was integrated into Buddhism.

Regardless, you can rely on the authority of the suttas blindly, or use your own insight to figure out how concepts such as rebirth and kamma function. Saying that it's not very important is both true and pragmatic, but if you are going to dream up answers anyway, don't form them solely upon vague indiscriminable forces.

All very good points... You seem intelligent. :D

About the things you listed: Could it not be all those things at the same time? :)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra


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