The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

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The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:29 pm

A question has been posed to me that I can't quite come to answer because I don't know which is the right answer or why. Which one do you think would weight more heavily in terms of karma debt:

Children killing parents or parents killing children?

With this I remember the Cardinal Sin that will throw a person in Avici is to kill one's parents, but there was no mention of killing one's children. Is Killing one's child bearing less karmic weight?
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby cooran » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:07 pm

Hello Wizard,

Can you give a link to the sutta which says Avici Hell for killing parents? Other than that, mostly there are no set penalties. Results of actions can vary with individuals.

Other suttas which may be of interest are:

MN 135 Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Shorter Analysis of Action
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#kill

AN 3.99 Lonaphala Sutta: The Salt Crystal
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

AN 4.77 Acintita Sutta: Unconjecturable
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:19 pm

I wiki-ed

I think it comes from King Ajatasattu who killed his father to ascend the throne.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm

Killing one's own mother or father is heavier than killing one's own children or other relatives. The reason being the enormous debt of gratitude that one owes to one's parents. Even if they are the world's worst parents, the child's human existence depends on them, and this precious human rebirth could not come about without at least some help from the parents, even if one was abandoned at birth and left to die by the road-side.
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:18 pm

Bhante, when a parent kills their children, this human being clearly had a capacity for better but was never exposed or given a chance to make full use of it.
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Taco » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:21 pm

Bhikkhu Bodhi has written something based on the commentarial views:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#prec2
Acts of taking life are differentiated by way of their degree of moral gravity. Not all cases of killing are equally blameworthy. All are unwholesome, a breach of the precept, but the Buddhist texts make a distinction in the moral weight attached to different kinds of killing.

The first distinction given is that between killing beings with moral qualities (guna) and killing beings without moral qualities. For all practical purposes the former are human beings, the latter animals, and it is held that to kill a fellow human being is a more serious matter ethically than to kill an animal. Then within each category further distinctions are drawn. In the case of animals the degree of moral gravity is said to be proportional to the animal, to kill a larger animal being more blameworthy than to kill a smaller one. Other factors relevant to determining moral weight are whether the animal has an owner or is ownerless, whether it is domestic or wild, and whether it has a gentle or a vicious temperament. The moral gravity would be greater in the former three alternatives, less in the latter three.

In the killing of human beings the degree of moral blame depends on the personal qualities of the victim, to kill a person of superior spiritual stature or one's personal benefactors being more blameworthy than to kill a less developed person or one unrelated to oneself. The three cases of killing selected as the most culpable are matricide, parricide, and the murder of an arahant, a fully purified saint.

Another factor determinative of moral weight is the motivation of the act. This leads to a distinction between premeditated murder and impulsive killing. The former is murder in cold blood, intended and planned in advance, driven either by strong greed or strong hatred. The latter is killing which is not planned in advance, as when one person kills another in a fit of rage or in self-defense. Generally, premeditated murder is regarded as a graver transgression than impulsive killing, and the motivation of hatred as more blameworthy than the motivation of greed. The presence of cruelty and the obtaining of sadistic pleasure from the act further increase its moral weight.

Other factors determinative of moral gravity are the force of the defilements accompanying the act and the amount of effort involved in its perpetration, but limitations of space prohibit a full discussion of their role.

A logical system I guess...
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Annapurna » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:07 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:Bhante, when a parent kills their children, this human being clearly had a capacity for better but was never exposed or given a chance to make full use of it.


Not necessarily.

It may be according to this child's kamma to die so young.

It was still nourished in the mothers womb for 9 long months and given birth to while risking her own own life under great pain.

I may be mistaken, since I am not an authorized teacher. This is just my understanding.
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby cooran » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:31 am

Hello all,

Not all kamma has to come to fruition.

Good, Evil and Beyond - Kamma in the Buddha's Teaching by P. A. Payutto

Contents:
Introduction
Acknowledgment
1. Understanding the Law of Kamma
Kamma as a law of nature
The law of kamma and social preference
The meaning of kamma
a. kamma as intention
b. kamma as conditioning factor
c. kamma as personal responsibility
d. kamma as social activity or career
Kinds of kamma

2. On Good and Evil
The problem of good and evil
The meaning of kusala and akusala
Kusala and akusala as catalysts for each other
Gauging good and bad kamma
Primary factors
Secondary factors

3. The Fruition of Kamma
Results of kamma on different levels
Factors that affect the fruition of kamma
Understanding the process of fruition
Fruits of kamma on a long term basis -- Heaven and Hell
Summary: verifying future lives
Kamma fruition in the Cula Kammavibhanga Sutta

4. Kamma on the Social Level
The importance of ditthi in the creation of kamma
External influences and internal reflection
Personal responsibility and social kamma
Responsible social action

5. The Kamma that Ends Kamma

6. Misunderstandings of The Law of Kamma
Who causes happiness and suffering?
Beliefs that are contrary to the law of kamma
Can kamma be erased?
Do kamma and not-self contradict each other?

7. In Conclusion
The general meaning
Intelligence over superstition
Action rather than prayer
Non-adherence to race or class
Self reliance
A caution for the future
References
http://www.buddhanet.net/cmdsg/kamma.htm#Contents

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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:43 pm

I'd ask who cares? Why do they need to know?

Most people don't contemplate killing their parents or children, I'm sure the asker is aware of that. Are the askers faced with a situation where they must choose between killing their parents or their children? ridiculous.

Sounds to me like you are being bated, don't buy into it.
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Skaffen » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:27 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Killing one's own mother or father is heavier than killing one's own children or other relatives. The reason being the enormous debt of gratitude that one owes to one's parents. Even if they are the world's worst parents, the child's human existence depends on them, and this precious human rebirth could not come about without at least some help from the parents, even if one was abandoned at birth and left to die by the road-side.


Eh? - You would kill children before people near retirement?!! - Then you suggest you owe your parents something even if abandoned?!....wow oh wow :alien:
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Skaffen » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:33 am

Annapurna wrote:
Wizard in the Forest wrote:Bhante, when a parent kills their children, this human being clearly had a capacity for better but was never exposed or given a chance to make full use of it.


Not necessarily.

It may be according to this child's kamma to die so young.

It was still nourished in the mothers womb for 9 long months and given birth to while risking her own own life under great pain.

I may be mistaken, since I am not an authorized teacher. This is just my understanding.


I think this is a derivative of the Catholic 'Original Sin' - try Deathlessness, Ego less, ...or better - http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/book/1788/
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Skaffen » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:33 am

Annapurna wrote:
Wizard in the Forest wrote:Bhante, when a parent kills their children, this human being clearly had a capacity for better but was never exposed or given a chance to make full use of it.


Not necessarily.

It may be according to this child's kamma to die so young.

It was still nourished in the mothers womb for 9 long months and given birth to while risking her own own life under great pain.

I may be mistaken, since I am not an authorized teacher. This is just my understanding.


I think this is a derivative of the Catholic 'Original Sin' - try Deathlessness, Ego less, ...or better - http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/book/1788/
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby son of dhamma » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:14 am

Skaffen wrote:Eh? - You would kill children before people near retirement?!! - Then you suggest you owe your parents something even if abandoned?!....wow oh wow :alien:


He certainly wasn't claiming that he would kill anyone. The Buddhadhamma does make it clear that a great debt is owed to one's parents, a debt that can only be adequately repaid by establishing them in the Dhamma, to live Righteous lives, and by entering into the holy life. They are responsible for the human life you have entered into, if nothing else.
Killing one's parents would be of much greater kammic consequence than killing your own children.
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby appicchato » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:51 am

...in terms of karma debt...

Debt, by definition, is something that is owed, or due...might just be me but I don't look upon kamma (karma) as being anything related to the idea of incurring debt...oh, and I'm lost why anyone would wonder, contemplate, or discuss, which of two (very) unskillful, unwholesome, activities is worse...again, might just be me...
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby son of dhamma » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:55 am

Yes, indeed. Debt is something that is erased only when it is paid, correct? Kamma is eradicated through meditative and other skillful processes. Kammic energy can be dissolved without it being paid for (without the fruition of this kamma). If not, then Nibbana would be impossible to attain, at any rate.
Kamma isn't debt, therefore. It is just the money that you're holding in the bank--with great effort, you can withdraw all of it and do away with every last penny.
That sounds pretty nice. :D
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Re: The karma of patricide heavier than the karma of filicide?

Postby Individual » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:20 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Killing one's own mother or father is heavier than killing one's own children or other relatives. The reason being the enormous debt of gratitude that one owes to one's parents. Even if they are the world's worst parents, the child's human existence depends on them, and this precious human rebirth could not come about without at least some help from the parents, even if one was abandoned at birth and left to die by the road-side.

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