The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:54 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Individual wrote:What's mental health like in Asian countries?

Same basic practice: lock 'em up, drug 'em up, and fancy techniques for talking to them nicely?




Evidence?
Quite honestly this thread is a waste of time.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Individual wrote:What's mental health like in Asian countries?

Same basic practice: lock 'em up, drug 'em up, and fancy techniques for talking to them nicely?




Evidence?
Quite honestly this thread is a waste of time.




TBH I agree
Last edited by clw_uk on Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby Hoo » Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:58 am

Individual wrote:....No medicals school, but I've taken intro to psych, social psych, abnormal psych, and I was about halfway through educational psych before I got kicked out.

Academic stuff isn't that deep. You can walk into a university library, pick up the relevant texts for a course, and without having the money or status for the degree, read the book carefully and your understanding is essentially equal with the academic elites... :)
...Just like the academic-only Buddhist is equal in knowledge and wisdom to the practicing Buddhist?

You seem to be promoting a misconception that psychiatry and psychology are academic only - they're not. There is technique training, case management training, social needs training, supervision of your counseling work and supervision of you, the worker, to help one be alert to possibly arising personal issues or barriers. Ongoing professional update training, workshops and seminars to lern new approaches and how they are applied.

Being a passenger on an airplane does not qualify one to critique all of aviation and dismiss it, much less haveing taken a few courses in what is a very involved process and field.

I think this is the last I"m going to say on this topic (hold the applause, please :) ) One either accepts or not that professionals know more about a field than non-professionals, and there are degrees of that knowledge even among professionals. If one believes they have the equivilant of professional knowledge and expertise (wihout the nedded study, practice and supervision), IMHO they are engaging in delusion and hopefully not teaching it to others.

Sorry to speak sharply on this but I have seen people suffer from attending to the advice of the well-meaning but unskilled, then had to go in and try to help set it straight. I also read the Canki Sutta about safeguarding the truth, which influenced me a lot in how I choose to say things http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby Individual » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:Quite honestly this thread is a waste of time.

You only say that because you think I'm a crazy person like Tom Cruise, who wants to de-legitimize psychiatry to justify his own craziness.

Aside from myself, some anecdotal examples: At my community college, I noticed recently that aderall abuse is widespread. Students are prescribed it for ADHD (not that hard to get) but once they get it, they abuse it.

A girl I know was prescribed paxil. Look into the controversy behind it being addictive. She's addicted to it, wants to get off of it, but her psychiatrist is unsympathetic, and she's just hooked. But it really does nothing for her, because she's still moody and depressed.
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:39 am

Individual wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Quite honestly this thread is a waste of time.

You only say that because you think I'm a crazy person like Tom Cruise, who wants to de-legitimize psychiatry to justify his own craziness.
I don't think Tom Cruise is crazy.

Aside from myself, some anecdotal examples: At my community college, I noticed recently that aderall abuse is widespread. Students are prescribed it for ADHD (not that hard to get) but once they get it, they abuse it.

A girl I know was prescribed paxil. Look into the controversy behind it being addictive. She's addicted to it, wants to get off of it, but her psychiatrist is unsympathetic, and she's just hooked. But it really does nothing for her, because she's still moody and depressed.
So, you have a couple of anecdotes and the whole of psychiatry is thrown into question. As I said this thread is waste of time.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:40 am

Individual-

I don't think anyone's saying it's perfect, but that doesn't necessarily illegitimize the whole lot of it.
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby Individual » Sat Dec 25, 2010 3:53 am

Kenshou wrote:I don't think anyone's saying it's perfect, but that doesn't necessarily illegitimize the whole lot of it.

It never did anything for me either, though.
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:53 am

Individual wrote:
Kenshou wrote:I don't think anyone's saying it's perfect, but that doesn't necessarily illegitimize the whole lot of it.

It never did anything for me either, though.
The logic is impeccable, psychiatry is, therefore, a big pile of crap.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby ground » Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:32 am

Individual wrote:As my wisdom has grown (or so I think), western psychiatry seems less and less valid.

It is valid ... in its own context but of course not in a buddhist context.

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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby PeterB » Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:50 am

TMingyur wrote:
Individual wrote:As my wisdom has grown (or so I think), western psychiatry seems less and less valid.

It is valid ... in its own context but of course not in a buddhist context.

Kind regards


Thats interesting. I became a psychiatrist , after seven years to become a doctor of medicine and a further three years to get on the psychiatric register, at the behest of my then teacher Trungpa Rinpoche.
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:58 am

PeterB wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Individual wrote:As my wisdom has grown (or so I think), western psychiatry seems less and less valid.

It is valid ... in its own context but of course not in a buddhist context.

Kind regards


Thats interesting. I became a psychiatrist , after seven years to become a doctor of medicine and a further three years to get on the psychiatric register, at the behest of my then teacher Trungpa Rinpoche.
A millions years ago, in the early 70's, while I was working on an acute care, unlocked psych unit, there was a nursing assistant, working on the unit, who was telling some of the patients that all they needed was to let Jesus into their hearts, to be washed in the blood of the lamb and things would be good, they would be cured. One of the patients reported him in less than flattering terms.

I am afraid there is serious naivete about mental illness and a lot of wishful thinking when it comes to one's religion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby PeterB » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:14 am

Psychiatry is no more and no less "Buddhist" than dentistry, dermatology, or gynacology. a mindful Buddhist dentist and I have one, is mindful. A mindful Buddhist psychiatrist, and I know quite a few, is mindful.
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby ground » Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:55 am

PeterB wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Individual wrote:As my wisdom has grown (or so I think), western psychiatry seems less and less valid.

It is valid ... in its own context but of course not in a buddhist context.

Kind regards


Thats interesting. I became a psychiatrist , after seven years to become a doctor of medicine and a further three years to get on the psychiatric register, at the behest of my then teacher Trungpa Rinpoche.


PeterB wrote:Psychiatry is no more and no less "Buddhist" than dentistry, dermatology, or gynacology. a mindful Buddhist dentist and I have one, is mindful. A mindful Buddhist psychiatrist, and I know quite a few, is mindful.


Well from my perspective you are sort of mixing up categories.

What is the context of psychiatry?
It is curing or alleviate mental illness of others. "mental illness" is what a collective has defined and agreed on as being "mental illness". "curing or alleviate" refers to the individual being mentally ill and the collective being disturbed by this individual and the aims of this collective not being appropriately supported by this individual due to mental illness.


And what is the context of buddhism?
It is curing one's own illness diagnosed by the Buddha applying the Buddha's prescribed remedies.


So it is all about relative human aims and the means for success in the contexts of these aims.

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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby PeterB » Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:33 am

There is in fact no consensus on what consitutes "mental illness"...views range from seeing all " mental ilness" as a psysiological anomaly to seeing all "mental illness" as faulty learning...and many shades in between. I am not mixing up catagories . I am saying that such catagories are only found in theory not in practice. In reality most psychiatrists I know use an eclectic approach..many like myself have added Cognitive Behaviour Therapy to their repetoire ( CBT has nothing to do with Behaviourism btw ). Which looks directly at the thoughts and feelings that are arising in the now for that person. CBT is of limited use for those with psychotic conditions like Schizophrenia or Bipolar Syndrome.
And Buddhist meditation is of limited use for those suffering from such conditions too. Unless they are subject to a regularly reviewed and carefully thought through medication regime.
Otherwise the the likelihood is twofold
Those with psychotic conditions will be overwhelmed by the release of cognitive material and/or they will not be able to sustain consistant practice.
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby ground » Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:51 am

PeterB wrote:And Buddhist meditation is of limited use for those suffering from such conditions too. Unless they are subject to a regularly reviewed and carefully thought through medication regime.
Otherwise the the likelihood is twofold
Those with psychotic conditions will be overwhelmed by the release of cognitive material and/or they will not be able to sustain consistant practice.

That from my perspective is the context of psychiatry: curing or alleviating mental illness of others with reference to the individual. Considering the lack of the capacity of a Buddha that is in the range of capacities of ordinary beings especially if accompanied by compassion.


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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby PeterB » Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:06 pm

Its just words.
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby Hoo » Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:39 pm

tiltbillings wrote:....I am afraid there is serious naivete about mental illness and a lot of wishful thinking when it comes to one's religion.


Well said, Tilt. Thanks for sharing your work experience in the field. Thanks Peter for sharing your education, experience and perspective. It took me six years to finish my undergrad and counseling degree, you mean I could have spent ten years and become a psychiatrist? ;) (sigh ;) )

PeterB wrote:....views range from seeing all " mental ilness" as a psysiological anomaly to seeing all "mental illness" as faulty learning...and many shades in between. I am not mixing up catagories . I am saying that such catagories are only found in theory not in practice.


IMH experience, it became more of a practice issue for the counselors, therapists and psych. social workers. Each client had their own mix of issues related to body/brain/environment/learning, etc. I believe most psychiatrists do adopt an eclectic approach. The ones I worked with were usually quite aware that illnesses were at least 3-dimensional but I did have one psychiatrist that believed it was all chemistry. To be fair, I have also met therapists who believed that talk therapies were the only effective treatments, that medical was only chemical warehousing. And there are psych social workers that believe that nothing significant can be done in an office, yada yada. But they all seem to grow out of that within a year or so of graduation and beginning practice, usually.

Hoo, now retired and Master of Faded Glory :)
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby adosa » Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:42 pm

‘True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.’ — Akhenaton

Unfortunately I lost a best friend a few years ago from bipolar disorder when he decided that his meds weren't necessary. Preaching crap such as the OP is dangerous even life threatening.


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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:48 pm

adosa wrote:‘True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.’ — Akhenaton

Unfortunately I lost a best friend a few years ago from bipolar disorder when he decided that his meds weren't necessary. Preaching crap such as the OP is dangerous even life threatening.
Pretty much.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The legitimacy of western psychiatry?

Postby Individual » Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:16 pm

But the commercials regarding some anti-depressants tell us they can increase the risk of suicide.
The best things in life aren't things.

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