Human reborn as Human

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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:12 am

son of dhamma wrote:If you want to see it--AS I HAVE SAID FROM THE GET-GO--then you'll have to
approach
the field
of study
on
your
own...
(with attentive inquisition, logic, skepticism, and scientific methodology in experimentation).

You know? Explore the world a little. You just need to be open, skeptical, and rooted in wholesomeness.
with metta
Which is to say, you are not answering my questions and you are not doing science. No surprise there.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby son of dhamma » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:16 am

My point has been that
an application of the scientific method to any particular study should be called "science". At least, that is my purpose for the word.

I explained that the resulting data can only be interpreted in the terms of this field of study and so amongst other members of this "community".
If you'd like to argue this point, then I think we might be addressing whether this is a scientific field, or not.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:20 am

son of dhamma wrote:My point has been that
an application of the scientific method to any particular study should be called "science". At least, that is my purpose for the word.
That is your idiosyncratic use of the word.

I explained that the resulting data can only be interpreted in the terms of this field of study and so amongst other members of this "community".
And the practitioners of the various Hindu systems and the practitioners of the various Mahayana systems can say the same from their perspective.

If you'd like to argue this point, then I think we might be addressing whether this is a scientific field, or not.
It is not an argument; it is not science.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby son of dhamma » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:24 am

What systems are we discussing, now? If the same thing can be said then I want a comparison and contrast between this field of study and these Hindu and Mahayanist "systems". Please, if you would.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:30 am

son of dhamma wrote:What systems are we discussing, now? If the same thing can be said then I want a comparison and contrast between this field of study and these Hindu and Mahayanist "systems". Please, if you would.
with metta
You want. That is nice, but why should I give you want you want when you do not give me (or others) what I (and they) want?

The issue here is not a comparison of systems in the particulars. It is, rather, to the point that what you are claiming is science can be claimed by practitioners of other systems with no less validity.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby cooran » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:38 am

Hello all,

Not sure if this has been mentioned or if you will even think it is relevant:

Buddhism as the Foundation of Science - Bhikkhu Prayudh Payutto
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/bu ... bfs-00.htm

with metta
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:50 am

cooran wrote:Hello all,

Not sure if this has been mentioned or if you will even think it is relevant:

Buddhism as the Foundation of Science - Bhikkhu Prayudh Payutto
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/bu ... bfs-00.htm

with metta
Chris
It is the usual stuff that comes from not really understanding what it is that science is and does.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:24 am

I think we should always remember Arthur C. Clarke's three "laws" of prediction:

1.When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right; when he states that something is impossible, he is probably wrong.
2.The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

As for the literal definition of what Magic is in regards to other people's inquiry, I think such a thing is merely, "probability enhancement". Individual processes of probability enhancement that follows the laws of nature, when fully known can be used to do some rather amusing things. Since we do magic and see magic all the time, most scientists don't bother trying to prove it exists or doesn't exist. Just my thoughts about it heheheh! (^_^)
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:38 pm

Since we do magic and see magic all the time, most scientists don't bother trying to prove it exists or doesn't exist. Just my thoughts about it heheheh! (^_^)



I dont "do" magic and I have never seen it or any evidence for it (unless you mean illusionary magic on stage)
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:48 pm

You've just revealed to me that when you say I'm speaking "white-noise" that you're really just not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not babbling. The Buddha recognized five orders of law, namely: Seasonal Law, Biological Law, Kammic Law, Phenomenological Law, and Psychological Law.


I know the Buddha taught in terms of Phenomenology, that is different to you saying that magic is a "force of the Phenomenological Law". What does that mean, you havent explained anything (and so it sounds just like white noise)

I share scientific research with many people that I know, and we study experiments together, and form joint-hypotheses when we're ready for that. I also introduce others to the field of study. If you haven't gotten into the field of study then you can't make heads or tails of any of the data. I don't know how to use magic to turn water into wine. I can't show that to Modern Scientists.


And as you say, you cant repeat the experiment to others internationally or share the data, accept to a small group (who seem to accept magic anyway) so its not science

Tell me then what exactly this data and hypotheses are, what effects does it have, give me an example

No, magic isn't science.


Yet you say it is

Magic is a force that can be studied scientifically, and is, by myself, and many others.


If it is a force of nature then it can be studied by anyone, concrete data can be gained through repeatable experiments and shown to others, yet this has never been the case and only those who believe in magic claim its validity while not being able to prove it to the wider community...

Don't accept whatever you don't want to accept. If you want to exclude yourself from this particular field of study on whatever grounds, then that is fine.


You havent given me any reason to assume that this field of study exists...

But if you refuse to produce the evidence with your own work, then my argument is that you shouldn't discredit the work of others.


I can discredit the work of others when they offer no hypothesis, no data, no methodology or experiments

You have no grounds to say that it isn't true. You may only say truthfully that you have no idea.


Im not actually denying, the onus is on you to prove it otherwise I have no reason to accept it

Fantasy? Why would you think that all of the people in this field of study are so deeply deluded that they play around with things to generate some sort of fantastic hypothetical force? You've never examined the whole of "magic" to find the truth that is embedded within it. Fantasy dissolves under the hyped skepticism of the field of magical study.


Lots of people can be deluded, the belief in transubstantiation proves that
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:18 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Since we do magic and see magic all the time, most scientists don't bother trying to prove it exists or doesn't exist. Just my thoughts about it heheheh! (^_^)



I dont "do" magic and I have never seen it or any evidence for it (unless you mean illusionary magic on stage)


I meant technological advancement, but I love watching illusionists too!
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:08 am

I mean consider the fact that at the time when a statement is made about a particular ability, a load of investigation happens in relation to the scientific possibility of a phenomenon, and then we exploit the loopholes and we get technological advancement. If this kind of thing isn't magic, I don't know what is.
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby khlawng » Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:23 am

andyn wrote:
Aloka wrote:Hi andyn,

Perhaps it isn't meant to be interpreted literally ?

Kind regards,

Aloka


The Buddha's word are said to be of absolute truthfulness and he knows all. I'm so depressed when reading this though.


Just to cheer you up:

The Flat Earth Sutta

I have heard that on one occasion, The Blessed One while sitting very still, having surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One, saw that The Earth is not flat with Mount Sineru in the middle but instead is round, like a sphere, covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands. Having seen that The Earth is not flat with Mount Sineru in the middle but instead is round, like a sphere, covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands, He thought

“This world, This realm, This Earth, round like a sphere and covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands exists due to the sheer ignorance and cause and effects of beings. This earth will continue to exist so long as there is becoming. “

Having thought that, The Blessed One out of compassion for future beings thought

“The Dhamma I teach will be compiled into 84,000 suttas all which will lead towards the end of becoming. I shall not burden future beings with one additional about The Earth being not flat with Mount Sineru in the middle but instead is round, like a sphere, covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands.”

With that, The Blessed One kept silent.
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:00 pm

khlawng wrote:
andyn wrote:
Aloka wrote:Hi andyn,

Perhaps it isn't meant to be interpreted literally ?

Kind regards,

Aloka


The Buddha's word are said to be of absolute truthfulness and he knows all. I'm so depressed when reading this though.


Just to cheer you up:

The Flat Earth Sutta

I have heard that on one occasion, The Blessed One while sitting very still, having surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One, saw that The Earth is not flat with Mount Sineru in the middle but instead is round, like a sphere, covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands. Having seen that The Earth is not flat with Mount Sineru in the middle but instead is round, like a sphere, covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands, He thought

“This world, This realm, This Earth, round like a sphere and covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands exists due to the sheer ignorance and cause and effects of beings. This earth will continue to exist so long as there is becoming. “

Having thought that, The Blessed One out of compassion for future beings thought

“The Dhamma I teach will be compiled into 84,000 suttas all which will lead towards the end of becoming. I shall not burden future beings with one additional about The Earth being not flat with Mount Sineru in the middle but instead is round, like a sphere, covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands.”

With that, The Blessed One kept silent.



Do you have a link or reference to where this is in the cannon?
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:17 pm

khlawng wrote:
andyn wrote:
Aloka wrote:Hi andyn,

Perhaps it isn't meant to be interpreted literally ?

Kind regards,

Aloka


The Buddha's word are said to be of absolute truthfulness and he knows all. I'm so depressed when reading this though.


Just to cheer you up:

The Flat Earth Sutta

I have heard that on one occasion, The Blessed One while sitting very still, having surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One, saw that The Earth is not flat with Mount Sineru in the middle but instead is round, like a sphere, covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands. Having seen that The Earth is not flat with Mount Sineru in the middle but instead is round, like a sphere, covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands, He thought

“This world, This realm, This Earth, round like a sphere and covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands exists due to the sheer ignorance and cause and effects of beings. This earth will continue to exist so long as there is becoming. “

Having thought that, The Blessed One out of compassion for future beings thought

“The Dhamma I teach will be compiled into 84,000 suttas all which will lead towards the end of becoming. I shall not burden future beings with one additional about The Earth being not flat with Mount Sineru in the middle but instead is round, like a sphere, covered with vast oceans and interlocking lands.”

With that, The Blessed One kept silent.


This ties in nicely with the Pont Ing Sutta.

Thus have I heard. Once when the Blessed One was resident at the Vultures Peak he was approached by Packa the Merchant who addressed him thus,
"Lord how shall we know that the time of the ending of the Leather On Willow era is imminent or has arrived ? "
At this the Lord grew pensive and after many minutes had passed reasoned thus.
" If I speak of the Ashes, their loss and their return mere speculation will follow as a cart wheel follows the cart. Then grief and attachment will surely follow as another cart wheel follows yet another cart. I will therefore resolve to keep silent "
Thus reasoned the Teacher Of Gods And Men.
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby khlawng » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:33 pm

OK, so I was in a light-hearted and cheeky mood today and I read this thread and thought it was getting a little intense and serious... so in short, I made up The Flat Earth Sutta. Sorry.
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby Kenshou » Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:51 pm

I thought it was a good point to consider, in any case.
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby cooran » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:12 am

PeterB said:
This ties in nicely with the Pont Ing Sutta.

Thus have I heard. Once when the Blessed One was resident at the Vultures Peak he was approached by Packa the Merchant who addressed him thus,
"Lord how shall we know that the time of the ending of the Leather On Willow era is imminent or has arrived ? "
At this the Lord grew pensive and after many minutes had passed reasoned thus.
" If I speak of the Ashes, their loss and their return mere speculation will follow as a cart wheel follows the cart. Then grief and attachment will surely follow as another cart wheel follows yet another cart. I will therefore resolve to keep silent "
Thus reasoned the Teacher Of Gods And Men.


Pont Ing Sutta?? I thought it was called Cala Mitous Sutta ....

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/the-a ... 5983193161
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby PeterB » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:28 am

cooran wrote:
PeterB said:
This ties in nicely with the Pont Ing Sutta.

Thus have I heard. Once when the Blessed One was resident at the Vultures Peak he was approached by Packa the Merchant who addressed him thus,
"Lord how shall we know that the time of the ending of the Leather On Willow era is imminent or has arrived ? "
At this the Lord grew pensive and after many minutes had passed reasoned thus.
" If I speak of the Ashes, their loss and their return mere speculation will follow as a cart wheel follows the cart. Then grief and attachment will surely follow as another cart wheel follows yet another cart. I will therefore resolve to keep silent "
Thus reasoned the Teacher Of Gods And Men.


Pont Ing Sutta?? I thought it was called Cala Mitous Sutta ....

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/the-a ... 5983193161

I believe it depends on which Continent you read it Cooran...
I share your pain.... ;)
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Re: Human reborn as Human

Postby Moth » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:52 pm

As it would be foolish to assume that everything in the Pali cannon is a perfect, unaltered quote of the Buddha, I find it more beneficial to focus on understanding the Four Noble Truths and practicing the Noble Eightfold Path. Whether or not the earth is flat, round, a cylinder, a triangle, a Spaghettio, as the Buddha himself states, it is not something we should be concerning ourselves with. This human life, as this thread's subject references, is rare, short, and precious. Let us not waste it on trivial matters.

On the subject of trivial questions.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

On the subject of blind-faith.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta.
May you be happy. May you be a peace. May you be free from suffering.
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