Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

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Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:23 pm

Hey all,

I was wondering where a Vajrayana practitioner will be reborn from a Theravadan perspective. From a Theravadan perspective, I'm guessing a bad rebirth for a Vajrayana practitioner would be due to wrong view and practice? Would I be headed towards the Animal realm? Ghost realm? Human realm? As you all know I'm a Vajrayana practitioner, but I've also had some training in the Mahasi Style of vipassana. I am genuniely curious though as to the realm I would be heading to from a Theravadan point of view. I have a ridiculously thick skin, so please be honest and blunt, it's OK. :smile:

Scriptural references are appreciated. :smile:

:namaste:
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Anicca » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:37 pm

mr. gordo wrote:Scriptural references are appreciated.


AN 4.77 Acintita Sutta

""There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."

"

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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:39 pm

If you practice the NEFP then you wont worry about such things :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:44 pm

clw_uk wrote:If you practice the NEFP then you wont worry about such things :)


Hi clw, forgive my ignorance, but what's NEFP?
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:45 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
clw_uk wrote:If you practice the NEFP then you wont worry about such things :)


Hi clw, forgive my ignorance, but what's NEFP?




Noble Eightfold Path :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:46 pm

Anicca wrote:"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...
"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.


Thanks anicca...I was hoping this sutta wouldn't be posted...lol. An educated guess perhaps? :smile:
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:47 pm

clw_uk wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:
clw_uk wrote:If you practice the NEFP then you wont worry about such things :)


Hi clw, forgive my ignorance, but what's NEFP?




Noble Eightfold Path :)


Doh! should have seen that.

It's not that I'm worried. I'm not worried at all, just curious actually. :smile:
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:48 pm

If members feel uncomfortable commenting, please feel free to PM me if you'd like. :smile:
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Anicca » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:52 pm

mr. gordo wrote:Thanks anicca...I was hoping this sutta wouldn't be posted...lol. An educated guess perhaps?

Sorry - it is beyond my education to know or guess.
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 6:55 pm

Anicca wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:Thanks anicca...I was hoping this sutta wouldn't be posted...lol. An educated guess perhaps?

Sorry - it is beyond my education to know or guess.
metta


:namaste:
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Anicca » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:03 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
Anicca wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:Thanks anicca...I was hoping this sutta wouldn't be posted...lol. An educated guess perhaps?

Sorry - it is beyond my education to know or guess.
metta

:namaste:


My wish and hope would be that you go all the way to the cessation of suffering.
:anjali:

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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby cooran » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:41 pm

Hello Mr. Gordo, all,

Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Theravada, Vajrayana, Mahayana, Dzogchen - - - - just labels.

It has to do with your intentional actions – not what label you apply to yourself.

"So it is with any man who refrains from taking life, from stealing, & from indulging in illicit sex; refrains from lying, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; is not greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

‘’As they sat there, the Kalamas of Kesaputta said to the Blessed One, "Lord, there are some priests & contemplatives who come to Kesaputta. They expound & glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, they deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. And then other priests & contemplatives come to Kesaputta. They expound & glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, they deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. They leave us absolutely uncertain & in doubt: Which of these venerable priests & contemplatives are speaking the truth, and which ones are lying?"
"Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them.’’
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
MN 135 Cula-kammavibhanga Sutta: The Shorter Analysis of Action http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

316-319
Ashamed of what's not shameful, not ashamed of what is, beings adopting wrong views go to a bad destination. Seeing danger where there is none, & no danger where there is, beings adopting wrong views go to a bad destination. Imagining error where there is none, and seeing no error where there is, beings adopting wrong views go to a bad destination. But knowing error as error, and non-error as non-, beings adopting right views go to a good destination.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-316

Kamma and Rebirth – Nyantiloka
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 4.html#ch2

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:43 pm

Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Theravada, Vajrayana, Mahayana, Dzogchen - - - - just labels.

It has to do with your intentional actions – not what label you apply to yourself.




:goodpost:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Anicca » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:09 pm

mr. gordo wrote:As you all know I'm a Vajrayana practitioner


Can you provide a brief description of what you practice?

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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Aloka » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:17 pm

mr. gordo wrote:Hey all,

I was wondering where a Vajrayana practitioner will be reborn from a Theravadan perspective. From a Theravadan perspective, I'm guessing a bad rebirth for a Vajrayana practitioner would be due to wrong view and practice? Would I be headed towards the Animal realm? Ghost realm? Human realm? As you all know I'm a Vajrayana practitioner, but I've also had some training in the Mahasi Style of vipassana. I am genuniely curious though as to the realm I would be heading to from a Theravadan point of view. I have a ridiculously thick skin, so please be honest and blunt, it's OK. :smile:

:namaste:


Why expect other people on an internet forum to speculate about your future, mr gordo ? Just keep practising and be mindful and aware in the here and now !

:anjali:
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:23 pm

Anicca wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:As you all know I'm a Vajrayana practitioner


Can you provide a brief description of what you practice?

metta


Hi Anicca,

Practices from Sakya and Nyingma lineages. :smile:
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:24 pm

Aloka wrote:
mr. gordo wrote:Hey all,

I was wondering where a Vajrayana practitioner will be reborn from a Theravadan perspective. From a Theravadan perspective, I'm guessing a bad rebirth for a Vajrayana practitioner would be due to wrong view and practice? Would I be headed towards the Animal realm? Ghost realm? Human realm? As you all know I'm a Vajrayana practitioner, but I've also had some training in the Mahasi Style of vipassana. I am genuniely curious though as to the realm I would be heading to from a Theravadan point of view. I have a ridiculously thick skin, so please be honest and blunt, it's OK. :smile:

:namaste:


Why expect other people on an internet forum to speculate about your future, mr gordo ? Just keep practising and be mindful and aware in the here and now !

:anjali:


Hi Aloka,

I'm not really looking for someone to "predict" anything really. I'm more interested in the POV of a Theravadan who views a Vajrayana pracititioner's practice in terms of the result.
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:26 pm

cooran wrote:"So it is with any man who refrains from taking life, from stealing, & from indulging in illicit sex; refrains from lying, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; is not greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

316-319
Ashamed of what's not shameful, not ashamed of what is, beings adopting wrong views go to a bad destination. Seeing danger where there is none, & no danger where there is, beings adopting wrong views go to a bad destination. Imagining error where there is none, and seeing no error where there is, beings adopting wrong views go to a bad destination. But knowing error as error, and non-error as non-, beings adopting right views go to a good destination.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-316


with metta
Chris


Thank you for these sutta references cooran! Very helpful! :smile: :namaste:
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:41 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Theravada, Vajrayana, Mahayana, Dzogchen - - - - just labels.

It has to do with your intentional actions – not what label you apply to yourself.




:goodpost:
Rebirth is not a problem. The real question is can a Vajrayanika have genuine insight following the path they have chosen.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 02, 2011 8:46 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Theravada, Vajrayana, Mahayana, Dzogchen - - - - just labels.

It has to do with your intentional actions – not what label you apply to yourself.




:goodpost:
Rebirth is not a problem. The real question is can a Vajrayanika have genuine insight following the path they have chosen.




I suppose that depends on how much the follow the Noble Eightfold Path...
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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