Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:06 pm

clw_uk wrote:
I suppose that depends on how much the follow the Noble Eightfold Path...
Then the question how much of the NEP is in the Vajrayana.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I suppose that depends on how much the follow the Noble Eightfold Path...
Then the question how much of the NEP is in the Vajrayana.




I dont know much about the tradition, perhaps the person who started the thread could tell us?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:15 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Theravada, Vajrayana, Mahayana, Dzogchen - - - - just labels.

It has to do with your intentional actions – not what label you apply to yourself.




:goodpost:
Rebirth is not a problem. The real question is can a Vajrayanika have genuine insight following the path they have chosen.


Ah, understood, thanks tilt.
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:22 pm

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
I suppose that depends on how much the follow the Noble Eightfold Path...
Then the question how much of the NEP is in the Vajrayana.




I dont know much about the tradition, perhaps the person who started the thread could tell us?


Well I think that would be a loaded answer upon my part as I would say Vajrayana contains all of the NEFP. However, others would strongly disagree. I'm not looking to dissect Vajrayana in comparison to Theravada though (there have been other threads for that).

I was really concerned about if rebirth would lead to a lower or higher realm in the eyes of a traditional Thervadan. From the responses given, it seems that even if Vajrayana does not fit the NEFP in accordance to Theravada standards, that it would still lead to higher rebirth? I guess I may have read in the past that having the wrong view would lead to the ghost realm or something to that effect. I forget the sutta for that though.

I think tilt does raise a good point in terms of asking does Vajrayana lead to awakening. I didn't ask this question since I think I already know the Theravadan POV on this. :smile:

:namaste:
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:25 pm

I was really concerned about if rebirth would lead to a lower or higher realm in the eyes of a traditional Thervadan. From the responses given, it seems that even if Vajrayana does not fit the NEFP in accordance to Theravada standards, that it would still lead to higher rebirth? I guess I may have read in the past that having the wrong view would lead to the ghost realm or something to that effect. I forget the sutta for that though.



If it is birth in particular realms your concerned with, then it all depends on intention. This applies to anyone, Christian, Atheist or Tibetan Buddhist

Wrong view that leads to an unwholesome state is the adoption of the view of "one life, not results of action, do what thou will". Since Tibetan Buddhist have a view of life after death, results of giving etc then they dont fall into wrong view that lends itself to unwholesome mind states


So a Tibetan Buddhist can have birth in a heavenly state if the intention is wholesome


In terms of liberation, then it depends on if one follows the NEFP
Last edited by clw_uk on Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Anicca » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:29 pm

mr. gordo wrote:I guess I may have read in the past that having the wrong view would lead to the ghost realm or something to that effect. I forget the sutta for that though.


MN 57 Kukkuravatika Sutta
Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb.


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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:33 pm

mr. gordo wrote:I think tilt does raise a good point in terms of asking does Vajrayana lead to awakening. I didn't ask this question since I think I already know the Theravadan POV on this. :smile:

:namaste:
There is no official Theravadin point of view. There is a sutta where the Buddha states that whatever practice entails the NEFP leads to truth (or some such thing). From my stand point I have no doubt that the Vajrayana has a capacity for producing genuine insight, though may be lot of side trips along the way.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Aloka » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:38 pm

mr. gordo wrote:
I think tilt does raise a good point in terms of asking does Vajrayana lead to awakening.

:namaste:



Indeed. My own solution to this conundrum was to change tradition from Vajrayana to Theravada. :D


:anjali:
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby cooran » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:41 pm

Hello all,

These threads may also be of use:

View of Mahayana/Vajrayana
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3375

What is conducive to awakening?
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3474

with metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:44 pm

"Another person has practiced the making of merit by giving as well as by moral discipline to a
high degree; but he has not undertaken the making of merit by meditation. With the breakup of
the body, after death, he will be reborn among humans in a favorable condition. Or he will be
reborn in the company of the devas of the Four Great Kings
."

Anguttara Nikaya 4.241-243

(i.e., anyone can go to heaven)
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby clw_uk » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:45 pm

From my stand point I have no doubt that the Vajrayana has a capacity for producing genuine insight, though may be lot of side trips along the way.



I agree, they do practice the NEFP but practices such as visualizations of Buddhas etc seem to be a distraction, just my opinion though
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby Mr. G » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:28 pm

Ah, wonderful responses! Thank you all! I've learned much! :smile:
:namaste:
Even if my body should be burnt to death
In the fires of hell,
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice
- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby plwk » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:33 pm

Mahaparinibbana Sutta
And the Blessed One spoke, saying:
"In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness.
But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.

Ajivaka Sutta
'Those who teach a Dhamma for the abandoning of passion, for the abandoning of aversion, for the abandoning of delusion -- their Dhamma is well-taught.
Those who have practiced for the abandoning of passion, for the abandoning of aversion, for the abandoning of delusion -- they have practiced well in this world.
Those whose passion ... aversion ... delusion is abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising: they, in this world, are well-gone.'

Maybe you would like to share your thoughts with the sister site Dharmawheel
Also Apannaka Sutta & Paramatthaka Sutta
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

Postby piotr » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:10 pm

Hi Mr. Godo,

I think that everything depends on what qualities one developes through practice. And the only person who could know this qualities of other's mind is the Buddha or someone like him, so I belive we shouldn't pass easily judgement on people and their future rebirth (cf. Migasālāsutta [AN 6.44] http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208-p.html#22.Don’tJudgeOthers! [copy and paste a link]).
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
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