"Thou art that"

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: "Thou art that"

Postby Ben » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:46 am

Hi M4
Metta-4 wrote:It sounds like an Eastern version of "I think therefore I am." Buddha responds, "No you don't; and no you aren't." :D


I was reading Ledi Sayadaw the other night who said (in words to the effect of) according to the Buddha, one is just phenomena and process.
I'll have to dig the quote out...
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Site Admin
Posts: 16309
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: "Thou art that"

Postby cooran » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:20 am

Hello VeganLiz, Ben, All,

Ben, I'll look forward to that quote when you've got the time.

A little reading matter:

Anatta or soul-lessness by Narada Thera

The Trilogy of Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta by Bhikkhu Bodhi

ANATTA (NON-SELF) by Ajahn Brahmavamso
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ANATTA.htm

with metta
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Posts: 7761
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: "Thou art that"

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:07 pm

None of these have been declared as true by the Buddha:

Thou art that, thou art not that
Thou art both that and not that
Thou art neither that, nor not that

with metta

With Metta

& Upekkha
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: "Thou art that"

Postby Goedert » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:45 pm

I have found an article that explain such a meaning... See above:

The genuine meaning of Tathagata

Copyright 2007 Aryasatvan

The Tathagata, pronounced: “Taaht-ahgatah”, in the common nonsensical definition by ignorant modern “Buddhism” is meant “thus come one”, or “thus gone one”. This view ignorantly implies a formal appellation of importance (such as Sir, Master, Great-One, etc.) rather than a denotation of a profound spiritual attainment.

The term Tathagata is composed of two parts, Tat, and agata. Tat has been since time immemorial in India, meant Brahman, the Absolute, as in the famous Upanishadic dictum: “That (Brahman) thou art” (tat tvam asi). “That” is here, of course Brahman, the Godhead, the Subject of Selfhood which the muni, or sage, has reached at the pinnacle of his having fulfilled wisdom’s perfection. Agata is the past tense denotation of gata (going, traveling, trekking), here being meant “arrival, gone-unto, attainment of, arrival-at”. As such, Tathagata in the ancient Prakrit Pali, is meant literally “(The sage who has) arrived at the Absolute”, or in Sramanic context of Vedanta and Buddhism, “(He-thou) is (arrived at) That”. The very term Tathagata, which has of yet never been discovered by anyone until now, is none other than a personal appellation of that very rare someone who has realized by wisdom “tat tvam asi”. The Tathagata, therefore, is equally as well meant “The ‘tat tvam asi’ comprehensor/sage”.

It is unfathomable that modern so-called Buddhism’s position is that the spiritual appellation of the Buddha’s attainment, “attained/arrived at Brahman” (Tathagata) is merely an honorary designation for a popular sage. As [It 57] and other passages clearly show, “become-Brahman” is the meaning of the term Tathagata, or he who has arrived (agata), again being meant the transfiguration and assimilation of the mind (citta) in upon itself (bhava), and thereby achieving the Absolute, i.e. Brahman, as such (brahmabhutam tathagata) is said. To say that Tathagata, is meant by nonsensical “Buddhism”, to the effect: that Tathagata denotes the “thus-come one”, or “thus-gone one” has no contextual validity, is utterly illogical to read Pali as such, and carries no meaning whatsoever, which is all the more so magnified given that the very term Tathagata carries, regardless of translation, a very weighty importance and denotation; thereby secular ‘Buddhism’ intends to castrate the meaning of the term Tathagata, is yet another resection of original Buddhism by modern sects to turn Buddhism into a moralistic movement devoid of metaphysics.

Scriptural collaboration of same: (Tathagatassa hetam, adhivacanam brahmabhuto itipi)-“The Tathagata means 'the body of Brahman', 'become Brahman'” [DN 3.84]. (brahmabhutam tathagata)-“Become-Brahman is the meaning of Tathagata” [It 57]. Many more such passages are preset in suttana.

Source: Aryan Buddhism Blog

I do not have any schoolar knowledge, so this article get me confused. The autor of the blog also made some heavy critics about moderm buddhism culture, even about Theravada.

Any one could clarify the Therada version for this account?

Blog: http://aryan-buddhism.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 9:24 pm
Location: SC, Brazil

Re: "Thou art that"

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:41 pm

Last edited by Hanzze on Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
User avatar
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: "Thou art that"

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:23 pm

Goedert wrote:I have found an article that explain such a meaning... See above:

The genuine meaning of Tathagata

Copyright 2007 Aryasatvan
This guy is an atma-vadin, who will twist whatever text he can to prove that the Buddha really truly taught an atman doctrine. He gone under a number different names, proclaimed himself, at one tome to being a bhikkhu and buddhologist.

The there is always this: http://www.tathagata.co.uk/

But for a bit solid understanding of the term, there is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tath%C4%81gata
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
Posts: 19901
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "Thou art that"

Postby Goedert » Sun Jan 30, 2011 3:31 pm

Thanks tilt, your answer clarified my doubts.
User avatar
Posts: 312
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 9:24 pm
Location: SC, Brazil


Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests