Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby Dmytro » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:57 pm

Hi,

There's a good sutta on this subject:

'Now, at that time this evil supposition had arisen to Ven. Yamaka: "As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more (mental) effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

On the the other hand, the translation of 'vinnanam anidassanam' as a kind of consciousness is dubious:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5618

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:17 pm

TMingyur wrote:Only cessation of dukkha and its causes but no confirmation of anything else "in their place". This is how to restrain one's fantasy.

No fairy tales please! No nibbana cult!

Fair enough, but there seems to be a need to restrain runaway cessationist dogma, on the other hand. Otherwise I think we just end up at Sauron's view, quite frankly.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby rowyourboat » Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:42 pm

kirk5a wrote:From the same talk:

"As soon as we destroy avijja-paccaya sankhara, what happens? Avijjayatveva asesaviraga-nirodha sankhara nirodho -- 'All that is needed is for unawareness to be completely disbanded from the heart, then nirodho hoti -- everything else is disbanded.' What do you say to that? Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti -- 'All that is needed is for unawareness to be utterly disbanded, and everything -- the entire mass of suffering and stress -- is disbanded.' And that which knows that unawareness is disbanded, that's the pure one. How can that pure one disband or be annihilated? It's an utter truth."


'The Pure one'? Sound like something that is perfect and everlasting, hence sukha and nicca. Did the Buddha say that there was anything in the five aggregates (hence, can be experienced and known) which is sukha and nicca (satisfactory and permanent)? :smile:

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:25 pm

yeah that "one" in "pure one" seems so uneccesary from a dhamma perspective, nibbana is called the unconditioned, not the unconditioned one
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:30 pm

rowyourboat wrote:
kirk5a wrote:From the same talk:

"As soon as we destroy avijja-paccaya sankhara, what happens? Avijjayatveva asesaviraga-nirodha sankhara nirodho -- 'All that is needed is for unawareness to be completely disbanded from the heart, then nirodho hoti -- everything else is disbanded.' What do you say to that? Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti -- 'All that is needed is for unawareness to be utterly disbanded, and everything -- the entire mass of suffering and stress -- is disbanded.' And that which knows that unawareness is disbanded, that's the pure one. How can that pure one disband or be annihilated? It's an utter truth."


'The Pure one'? Sound like something that is perfect and everlasting, hence sukha and nicca. Did the Buddha say that there was anything in the five aggregates (hence, can be experienced and known which is sukha and nicca (satisfactory and permanent)? :smile:

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He said "that which KNOWS THAT UNAWARENESS IS DISBANDED" - not that which is KNOWN (that which is subject to disbanding).

As for what the Buddha said: "This is deathless: the liberation of the mind through lack of clinging/sustenance.'" MN 106.

edit: I took out the bit about "chutzpah" :smile: sorry
Last edited by kirk5a on Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:53 pm

maybe i was too rash posting while not delving deeply enough in the contents of discussion. However that "one" stood out.

observation: your tone seems to imply that certain persons, teachings, and the multitudes of copys of them are beyond inquery. Reveration has its place but sometimes it can fool us.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:13 pm

mlswe wrote:maybe i was too rash posting while not delving deeply enough in the contents of discussion. However that "one" stood out.

observation: your tone seems to imply that certain persons, teachings, and the multitudes of copys of them are beyond inquery. Reveration has its place but sometimes it can fool us.

My "tone" implies that something is beyond inquiry? How does a "tone" do that?

Well let me say explicitly that I regard nothing as beyond inquiry.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:53 pm

because this is text and not speech i am obviously missing many subtleties but the way you phrased it, words and order etc gave me that feeling. But it seems i was wrong, thats good too :)

wishing you well and thanks for replying
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:10 am

Vinnana causes mental-material phenomena
Mental-material phenomena causes vinnana (consciouness)

Do you posit self-existent phenomena?

If that which is aware is disbanded, aggregates cease.

The bigger question is- why is there so much resistance to a moment of cessation in multiple moments of arising bliss? Sounds like attachment to aggregates to me. :stirthepot:

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby pegembara » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:38 am

Having nothing,
clinging to nothing:
that is the Island,
there is no other;
that is Nibbæna, I tell you,
the total ending of ageing and death.
~ SN 1094


This is why the metaphor of ‘The Island that you cannot go beyond’ is so
very powerful, because it points to the principle of an awareness that you can’t get
beyond. It’s very simple, very direct, and you can’t conceive it. You have to trust
it. You have to trust this simple ability that we all have to be fully present and fully
awake, and begin to recognize the grasping and the ideas we have taken on about
ourselves, about the world around us, about our thoughts and perceptions and
feelings.
The way of mindfulness is the way of recognizing conditions just as they
are. We simply recognize and acknowledge their presence, without blaming them
or judging them or criticizing them or praising them. We allow them to be, the
positive and the negative both. And, as we trust in this way of mindfulness more
and more, we begin to realize the reality of ‘The Island that you cannot go
beyond.’

It is a place, as Ajahn Chah said, where you experience “the reality of non-grasping.”



The Island

AN ANTHOLOGY OF THE
BUDDHA’S TEACHINGS
ON NIBBANA

http://www.forestsangha.org/index.php?o ... &Itemid=25
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:21 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Vinnana causes mental-material phenomena
Mental-material phenomena causes vinnana (consciouness)

Do you posit self-existent phenomena?

If that which is aware is disbanded, aggregates cease.

The bigger question is- why is there so much resistance to a moment of cessation in multiple moments of arising bliss? Sounds like attachment to aggregates to me. :stirthepot:

I'm not positing anything actually.

My point in participating in this thread was just to share some words that go against the "extinction" idea, so here are some more:

"The Dhamma that can't be described: That's the genuine Dhamma. It doesn't have the word 'vanishes' or 'disappears' -- simply that the world can't reach in to know it and touch it. As for annihilating this Dhamma, it can't be annihilated. When we practice in line with the tactics given by each of the Buddhas, we can touch it and become aware of it. The heart becomes an awareness of the Dhamma, a right and fitting vessel for the Dhamma -- and there is no vessel more appropriate for receiving each level of the Dhamma than the heart. When it enters into the Dhamma in full measure, the heart becomes one with the Dhamma. The heart is the Dhamma. The Dhamma is the heart. Oneness. There is nothing but oneness, not becoming two with anything else."
- Ajahn Maha Boowa
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ey_Are.htm
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:32 pm

kirk5a wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Vinnana causes mental-material phenomena
Mental-material phenomena causes vinnana (consciouness)

Do you posit self-existent phenomena?

If that which is aware is disbanded, aggregates cease.

The bigger question is- why is there so much resistance to a moment of cessation in multiple moments of arising bliss? Sounds like attachment to aggregates to me. :stirthepot:

I'm not positing anything actually.

My point in participating in this thread was just to share some words that go against the "extinction" idea, so here are some more:

"The Dhamma that can't be described: That's the genuine Dhamma. It doesn't have the word 'vanishes' or 'disappears' -- simply that the world can't reach in to know it and touch it. As for annihilating this Dhamma, it can't be annihilated. When we practice in line with the tactics given by each of the Buddhas, we can touch it and become aware of it. The heart becomes an awareness of the Dhamma, a right and fitting vessel for the Dhamma -- and there is no vessel more appropriate for receiving each level of the Dhamma than the heart. When it enters into the Dhamma in full measure, the heart becomes one with the Dhamma. The heart is the Dhamma. The Dhamma is the heart. Oneness. There is nothing but oneness, not becoming two with anything else."
- Ajahn Maha Boowa
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ey_Are.htm



I beleive Ajahn Maha Boowa to know what he is talking about. Maybe its the translation, i don´t know but i think for many people this talking of oneness may confuse them into thinking that there are two things coming together. I think it was Thanissaro Bhikkhu who said something of the " already thereness" of it. Expressing it that way I think is much more clarifying. Focusing on the removing of dust of the Dhamma-eye
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:53 pm

mlswe wrote:I beleive Ajahn Maha Boowa to know what he is talking about.

Me. Too.
Maybe its the translation, i don´t know but i think for many people this talking of oneness may confuse them into thinking that there are two things coming together.

Let's read the whole thing. The snippets I've posted here are just for illustrative purposes.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby fabianfred » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:50 am

Here in Thailand I would imagine the majority of lay people hope for rebirth in the heaven realms, perhaps because they are afraid of Nibbana.
Heaven can be imagined but Nibbana cannot. They do not want to stop existing and suspect that that is what Nibbana is. Certainly Nibbana is no more rebirth (as we understand it)...in all the 31 realms of Samsara.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:42 pm

fabianfred wrote:Here in Thailand I would imagine the majority of lay people hope for rebirth in the heaven realms, perhaps because they are afraid of Nibbana.
Heaven can be imagined but Nibbana cannot. They do not want to stop existing and suspect that that is what Nibbana is. Certainly Nibbana is no more rebirth (as we understand it)...in all the 31 realms of Samsara.

Hello Bhante

Do you suppose that a certain presentation of the Dhamma might have contributed to this fear of Nibbana in lay Thai people? This ceases, that ceases, all consciousness ceases, everything whatsoever ceases... what's a reasonable person to conclude? My life has lots and lots of suffering sure. But it's still better than nothing, this total cessation, end of everything. Everything totally sucks and you're training to put an end to it all, is that what you monks are up to? If that's your "nibbana" well then.. phh. You can have it! I'm going to enjoy living the best I can! Sounds like "there is no life in the void, only death".

(I've put that perspective pretty powerfully, so there better be a more powerful counter-response, I think)
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby fabianfred » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:10 pm

Not my interpretation at all....but perhaps that of many Thais and Thai monks.
Personally I think that once having reached Arahant and died from this final existence in Samsara then perhaps it is like entering a new dimension. This would be unexplainable to us, stuck in our little three dimensional world, incomprehensible.
Ajarn Mun talked about past Buddhas and Arahants visiting him to teach him the Dhamma after he had attained to Arahant. Whether they came taking a physical form, or as Nimitta during meditation, they obviously have not just disappeared and are able to interact with those still stuck in Samsara.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby A_Martin » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:07 am

Straight from the heart, Things as they are and a Life of Inner Quality, all by the Venerable Acharn Maha Bua have been revised, difficult passages have been re translated from the Thai by a western monk who has trained more than 25 years under Venerable Acharn Maha Bua. I would advise to read the books of Than Acharn Maha Bua as you can find them on his website www.luangta.com/english, or forestdhammabooks. Maybe ore hopefully there will be less confusion then.
>> Phu ru, the One who knows, is avijja, Once Phu ru is gone, there is only kwarm ru luluan, infinite knowing, whatever you want to know, you can know.
>> Once avijja breaks down, you will see all the three realms, it is only avijja who hides them. The Past is there, e.g. you can see all your previous lifes and the future.
Some remarks the Venerable Acharn Maha Bua made in his talks to the monks. So little has been translated. In the last 15 years of his life he has given so complete descriptions of the path of practice and the encounters of a practitioner, that it is a real pity, that these have not been translated. I will try to translate with the help of a friend a few important ones.
As long as we are raindrops, we are limited and have an identity, once we fall back to where we belong, the vast ocean, we will loose our identity and whatever the ocean knows, is known. (However the ocean has no limits)
Words are conventional reality, nibbana is not conventional, so whatever we say about nibbana is limited, is bound to our understanding of conventional reality.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:13 pm

I agree with Martin. There is no point trying to clarify it logically. I might as well try to logically grasp the taste of oranges - but even that simile is not adequate because this about 'something' which does not exist is any shape or form that we know, yet cannot be said not to exist.
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:09 pm

rowyourboat wrote:I agree with Martin. There is no point trying to clarify it logically. I might as well try to logically grasp the taste of oranges - but even that simile is not adequate because this about 'something' which does not exist is any shape or form that we know, yet cannot be said not to exist.

Sure. And yet teachers still talk about it. :smile:

So continuing on with Ajahn Maha Boowa (Venerable Acharn Maha Bua), there is this juicy bit:

"I understood clearly that nothing dies. The citta certainly doesn’t die; in fact, it becomes more pronounced. The more fully we investigate the four elements, breaking them down into their original properties, the more distinctly pronounced the citta appears. So where is death to be found? And what is it that dies? The four elements—earth, water, wind and fire—they don’t die. As for the citta, how can it die? It becomes more conspicuous, more aware and more insightful. This essential knowing nature never dies, so why is it so afraid of death? Because it deceives itself. For eons and eons it has fooled itself into believing in death when actually nothing ever dies."
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ntship.htm
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby mlswe » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:56 am

mlswe wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Vinnana causes mental-material phenomena
Mental-material phenomena causes vinnana (consciouness)

Do you posit self-existent phenomena?

If that which is aware is disbanded, aggregates cease.

The bigger question is- why is there so much resistance to a moment of cessation in multiple moments of arising bliss? Sounds like attachment to aggregates to me. :stirthepot:

I'm not positing anything actually.

My point in participating in this thread was just to share some words that go against the "extinction" idea, so here are some more:

"The Dhamma that can't be described: That's the genuine Dhamma. It doesn't have the word 'vanishes' or 'disappears' -- simply that the world can't reach in to know it and touch it. As for annihilating this Dhamma, it can't be annihilated. When we practice in line with the tactics given by each of the Buddhas, we can touch it and become aware of it. The heart becomes an awareness of the Dhamma, a right and fitting vessel for the Dhamma -- and there is no vessel more appropriate for receiving each level of the Dhamma than the heart. When it enters into the Dhamma in full measure, the heart becomes one with the Dhamma. The heart is the Dhamma. The Dhamma is the heart. Oneness. There is nothing but oneness, not becoming two with anything else."
- Ajahn Maha Boowa
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ey_Are.htm



I beleive Ajahn Maha Boowa to know what he is talking about. Maybe its the translation, i don´t know but i think for many people this talking of oneness may confuse them into thinking that there are two things coming together. I think it was Thanissaro Bhikkhu who said something of the " already thereness" of it. Expressing it that way I think is much more clarifying. Focusing on the removing of dust of the Dhamma-eye



been tired and restless lately, that i missed the end is quite amazing, he is clear.

well back to anapanasati for me i think
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