Using Paradoxical Language

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
VeganLiz
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Using Paradoxical Language

Post by VeganLiz »

This isn't a zen forum but I was wondering why Zen poetry often times uses paradoxical language to speak about enlightenment and divine things.

It seems confusing to me. Is this found in all Buddhism?
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh
perkele
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by perkele »

No, it's not. It's just Zen as far as I can tell.

In the Pali Suttas there is nothing paradoxical as far as I can tell. And the Buddha was very intent on presenting everything he could present clearly, unambiguously.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

One of my favourite verses from the Dhammapada is full of double meanings.

An Excellent Man is Not Credulous
The man who is not credulous,1 who knows the uncreate,2
who has cut off rebirth,3 who has destroyed all results,4
and expelled all desires,5 he is truly an excellent man.6
The Wisdom of Venerable Sāriputta

When thirty forest monks came to pay their respects, the Buddha asked the Venerable Sāriputta whether he believed that cultivating and maturing the five spiritual faculties — confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom — could penetrate and culminate in the deathless. Venerable Sāriputta replied that he did not believe it. Since he had realised the Paths and Fruits he did not take it on faith in the Buddha. The monks talked among themselves that the elder had no faith in the Buddha. Then the Buddha explained that the Venerable Sāriputta was blameless as he had realised it through his personal experience, so he did not need to have faith in the word of another.
Taken at face value, this verse is very shocking, but the key words all have double-meanings.
  1. Assaddho literally means “without confidence” i.e. a non-believer, but here it means one who is not credulous.
  2. Akataññū means “ungrateful,” literally one who does not know what has been done for his benefit, but here it means one who knows (aññū) that which is not created (akata).
  3. Sandhicchedo means one who breaks the connection between houses, a burglar, but here it means an Arahant who won’t be reborn again because he has broken the connection between existences.
  4. Hatāvakāso means one who has ruined his life, but here it refers to the Arahant who has destroyed all future results.
  5. Vantāso or vantāsiko is a kind of hungry ghost (peta) that feeds on vomit, but here means one who has ‘vomitted’ or expelled all desire.
  6. Uttamapuriso means the best of men, but could also mean “one who thinks that he is superior to others” i.e. a conceited person.
You can just imagine the shock effect the verse had on the minds of the thirty forest monks, who entertained doubts about Venerable Sāriputta, if they thought what the Buddha was saying was:
“The ungrateful, faithless burglar, has ruined his life.
He eats what is vomited by others, yet thinks that he is superior.”
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perkele
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by perkele »

I'm sorry then. My reply came too rashly out of credulity. :geek:
mlswe
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by mlswe »

As I see it koans and paradoxical verse and stories and such things are there to hightlight the difference between conventional truth and ultimate truth (anicca, dukkha, anatta)
VeganLiz
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by VeganLiz »

Would you mind going more in depth on that? I'm curious.
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh
mlswe
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by mlswe »

perhaps you can provide one or more of the verses that made you think about this thing and I can try to use them as examples to point to the difference
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Alexei
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by Alexei »

VeganLiz wrote:Is this found in all Buddhism?
  • Having killed mother & father, two warrior kings, the kingdom & its dependency — the brahman, untroubled, travels on.
    Having killed mother & father, two learned kings, &, fifth, a tiger — the brahman, untroubled, travels on.
Dhp 294-5
  • On one occasion, some bhikkhus came to visit and pay homage to the Buddha at the Jetavana monastery. While they were with the Buddha, Lakundaka Bhaddiya happened to pass by not far from them. The Buddha called their attention to the short thera and said to them, "Bhikkhus, look at that thera. He has killed both his father and his mother, and having killed his parents he goes about without any dukkha." The bhikkhus could not understand the statement made by the Buddha. So, they entreated the Buddha to make it clear to them and the Buddha explained the meaning to them.
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dmpada2k.htm#294295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

  • Then Dona, following the Blessed One's footprints, saw him sitting at the root of the tree: confident, inspiring confidence, his senses calmed, his mind calmed, having attained the utmost control & tranquility, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a naga.[1] On seeing him, he went to him and said, "Master, are you a deva?"[2]
    "No, brahman, I am not a deva."
    "Master, are you a gandhabba?"
    "No, brahman, I am not a gandhabba."
    "Master, are you a yakkha?"
    "No, brahman, I am not a yakkha."
    "Master, are you a human being?"
    "No, brahman, I am not a human being."
AN 4.36

  • "I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, without staying in place."
SN 1.1

  • “Whenever you have feelings of love or hate for anything whatsoever, these will be your aides and partners in building parami. The Buddha-Dhamma is not to be found in moving forwards, nor in moving backwards, nor in standing still. This, Sumedho, is your place of non-abiding.”
Last message from Ajahn Chah to Ajahn Sumedho
mlswe
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by mlswe »

VeganLiz, this is not a koan, or a paradoxical verse. It is however an example of how to look at a text from the perspective of convention and of ultimate truth.

I had an exchange with a person on this board in another thread in where he said my argument was "splitting hairs" which conventionaly had the implication of unneccesary picking of his post

I replied that that splitting of hairs can be crucial because one half (after being split) is Dhamma and the other half is not. The Buddha says the Dhamma is subtle, hard to see.

to that he replied that having little hair of his own he begged to differ (to hair being crucial).

from a conventional perspective one can think refering to wisdom of age giving his opinion more weight (many aged men losing their hair)

from an ultimate perspective he doesnt consider hair to be crucial because because they are not him , anatta (he doesnt cling to hair, the hair is doing its thing, which often can be to dissapear with age)

wishing you well
VeganLiz
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by VeganLiz »

Thanks, that really makes a lot of sense.
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh
Jhana4
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by Jhana4 »

VeganLiz wrote:Thanks, that really makes a lot of sense.
I don't have anything to add, just wanted to say hello another vegan on the board.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
VeganLiz
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by VeganLiz »

Always good to hear from a fellow vegan. :)
"My actions are my only true belongings." Thich Nhat Hanh
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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

.

Nagarjuna's "Paradox"
Paul T. Sagal
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20014401?seq=1
  • The paradoxical nature of Nagarjuna's teaching has long been obvious.
  • Put baldly, the claim is that all views are absurd. But then the view that all views are absurd should also be absurd.

:heart:
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
SteRo
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by SteRo »

Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:43 am .

Nagarjuna's "Paradox"
Paul T. Sagal
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20014401?seq=1
  • The paradoxical nature of Nagarjuna's teaching has long been obvious.
  • Put baldly, the claim is that all views are absurd. But then the view that all views are absurd should also be absurd.

:heart:
Where has he found a paradox?
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Dan74
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Re: Using Paradoxical Language

Post by Dan74 »

VeganLiz wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:18 pm This isn't a zen forum but I was wondering why Zen poetry often times uses paradoxical language to speak about enlightenment and divine things.

It seems confusing to me. Is this found in all Buddhism?
Hi Liz :hello:

Some people will try to explain Zen koans and to some extent they can be explained. The trouble with that is that it misses their point. It's like explaining the smell of a rose to someone who's never even seen a flower. They are bound to get a completely wrong idea.

Koans are pointing at an experience of realisation. They are no puzzles to be solved. They are, however, often embedded in classical Chinese culture, so this could make some of them harder to relate to without the necessary background.
_/|\_
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