Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby starter » Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:32 pm

Hello, Teachers/Friends,

I just listened to an interesting Dhamma talk, in which seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth to liberation. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ...

Metta,

Starter
Last edited by starter on Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:12 pm

starter wrote:I just listened to an interesting Dhamma talk, in which seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ...


I think you've misinterpreted the talk.

Seeing anatta in the body would be seeing the ultimate truth about the body.

Seeing anatta in mental objects would be seeing the ultimate truth about mental objects.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
User avatar
Goofaholix
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:56 pm

edit: should speak less practice more
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mlswe
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:08 am

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:19 pm

.
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mlswe
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:08 am

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:01 pm

mlswe wrote:that is self-view. there arent bodies or mental objects, they are concepts containing subtrata and are conditioned. You see the truth in regards to the body not about it. And I find calling mental objects dhammic categories helps clarification.


You're hair splitting here.

My explanation was adequate to illustrate the difference between the OP's interpretation of the talk and what I suspect was really meant. My explanation wasn't intended as a copmplete existential categorisation.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
User avatar
Goofaholix
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:12 pm

.
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mlswe
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:08 am

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:18 pm

mlswe wrote:and one half of that straw of hair is dhamma, and the other is not

The Dhamma is subtle hard to see, hairs can be crucial


As someone who has lost most of his I beg to differ.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
User avatar
Goofaholix
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby starter » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:29 pm

Hi Friends, come on ... Let's stop "fighting" each other. My point was:

"... seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth [to liberation]. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding of the talk). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ..."
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Goofaholix » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:42 pm

starter wrote:Hi Friends, come on ... Let's stop "fighting" each other. My point was:

"... seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth [to liberation]. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding of the talk). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ..."


It seems to me not also.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
User avatar
Goofaholix
 
Posts: 2030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:03 am

Hi Starter,

starter wrote:Hi Friends, come on ... Let's stop "fighting" each other. My point was:

"... seeing anatta in physical body and other physical forms is considered as seeing the ultimate truth [to liberation]. This alone led to the attainment of the path and fruit of stream entry (to my understanding of the talk). But how about anatta in nama (the mental aspects of the 5 aggregates including feeling, perception, volitions, consciousness)? Would someone consider the body as anatta but still consider the consciousness as atta be able to enter the stream or obtain the fruit? It seems to me not ..."


Perhaps it is my perspective, but, if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas. Also, keep in mind that realization of anatta is quite an advanced insight. Most practitioners should be kept pretty busy by focusing on developing annica-vijja (insight into impermanence/wisdom of impermanence) for quite a while.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16313
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby starter » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:38 am

"... if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas".

-- I'm afraid not always. One can more easily see anatta in body than in mind ...
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:47 am

starter wrote:"... if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas".

-- I'm afraid not always. One can more easily see anatta in body than in mind ...


I would like to know how you came to that contention.
Thanks

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16313
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:24 am

Ben wrote:Hi Starter,
Perhaps it is my perspective, but, if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas.


This doesn't seem right. There are people who may consider the consciousness, mind or "spirit" to be the Self, and not this fleshy body.

"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2945
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:36 am

Alex123 wrote:
Ben wrote:Hi Starter,
Perhaps it is my perspective, but, if someone has seen anatta in rupa, then the person in question is not likely to see atta in any of the other khandhas.


This doesn't seem right. There are people who may consider the consciousness, mind or "spirit" to be the Self, and not this fleshy body.

According to you.

"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
[/quote]

Selective quoting to make, yet another, cheap shot. No where in the above does it speak of having insight into anatta via contemplation of rupa.

Perhaps you should have also included the below which directly follows from above...

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"'In other words:

"'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

"'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

"'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

"'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

"'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

"'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

"'From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"'Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.'

"Seeing thus, the instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness.[1] Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"


Which seems to support my earlier statement that insight into the anatta nature of rupa is an advanced insight.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16313
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:47 am

.
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mlswe
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:08 am

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:41 am

.
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mlswe
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:08 am

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:59 am

edit: i should speak less and practice more
Last edited by mlswe on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mlswe
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:08 am

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby A_Martin » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:24 am

see the supreme attainments, page 119 on the following link
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/boo ... _part3.pdf
You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry
A_Martin
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:45 pm
Location: Udorn, Thailand

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby Ben » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:30 am

A_Martin wrote:You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry

Thanks A Martin, a little clarification of the above would be appreciated.
Thanks

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16313
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:34 am

Hopefully this should clarify the issue:


MN44 Culavedalla Sutta wrote:
`sakkāyo sakkāyo'ti, ayye, vuccati. katamo nu kho, ayye, sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā"ti?

pañca kho ime, āvuso visākha, upādānakkhandhā sakkāyo vutto bhagavatā, seyyathidaṃ rūpupādānakkhandho, vedanupādānakkhandho, saññupādānakkhandho, saṅkhārupādānakkhandho, viññāṇupādānakkhandho

Personality, personality it is said, lady. What is described to be personality by the Blessed One?"

Five clinging aggregates are the personality described by the Blessed One: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate.'

So 'personality' (sakkaya) is the five clinging aggregates. It is one or few or all of these we consider to be the self. Self-view (sakkaya ditti) arises because due to lack of samadhi, we do not clearly see the aggregates. Hence we form various 'views'/conclusions/imagine various things about the aggregates, which are not true.

I have seen people able to get rid of a self view fairly easily when it comes to the body, but not so easily when it comes to the mind- hence the Buddha saying that even though the mind changes quicker, people still find it difficult to get rid of their self view of the mind. This is because the changing of consciousness is very difficult to see and the last refuge of the self view is often, consciousness. Observing only the body through vipassana is not guaranteed to get rid of self view, due to these reasons- having said that if a persons self view is only limited to the body and not to the mind (because the body is the most easily 'visible' aspect of the self) then a body contemplation like contemplating the four great 'primaries' (maha-bhutha) or doing an asubha (foulness of the body) or the body scan will/may be the required contemplation/meditation to get rid of that self view. This is not just me theorising - since I use a variety of methods to teach the dhamma, I see that different people need different methods from the satipatthana to get rid of their self-view.
Incidentally I dont have methods that I cling to and methods that I am averse to - I only care about what works.

With metta

Matheesha

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Next

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Mr Man, waryoffolly and 8 guests