Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby pegembara » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:00 am

Adhimutta and the Bandits

Whatever's compounded,
wherever a state of becoming's obtained,
all that has no one in charge:
so says the Great Seer.
Whoever discerns this,
as taught by the Awakened One,
would no more grasp hold of any state of becoming
than he would a hot iron ball.
I have no 'I was,'
no 'I will be.'
Fabrications will simply go out of existence.
What's to lament there in that?
For one who sees, as it actually is,
the pure arising of phenomena,
the pure seriality of fabrications,
there's no fear.
When seeing the world with discernment
as on a par with grass & twigs,
finding no 'mine-ness,'
thinking, 'There's nothing of mine,'
he feels no sorrow.
Dissatisfied with this carcass,
I'm unconcerned with becoming.
This body will break up
and there will not be another.

Do as you like with this carcass.
From that I will feel
neither hatred nor love.

http://what-buddha-taught.net/accesstoi ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:23 pm

A_Martin wrote:see the supreme attainments, page 119 on the following link
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/boo ... _part3.pdf
You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry


fetter of morality is a bit sloppily expressedI think, its the fetter of clinging to rites and rituals. Seeing that the forms of reverence isnt relevant but the contents.
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:42 pm

mlswe wrote:
A_Martin wrote:see the supreme attainments, page 119 on the following link
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/boo ... _part3.pdf
You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry


fetter of morality is a bit sloppily expressedI think, its the fetter of clinging to rites and rituals. Seeing that the forms of reverence isnt relevant but the contents.


Silabbata ('clinging to rites and rituals') - as for what changes with that, when it comes to stream entry-IMO the change is the belief that any rite or ritual can take a person to nibbana. This was particularly relevant during the Buddhas time because people were seeking nibbana using various rites and rituals- some would act like goats and cows! When the practitioner knows beyond a shadow of doubt that dukkha finally ceases by following the noble eightfold path, gen the idea of using some rite or ritual to get there doesn't arise any more. I hope that makes sense.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone sees the ultimate truth?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:04 pm

Hi Ben,

Ben wrote:Which seems to support my earlier statement that insight into the anatta nature of rupa is an advanced insight.


It can be advanced, sure. But many ideas of Self do not believe in Self being the body. Some theorize self to be the mind, spirit, soul, whatever, not necessarily the body.

With best wishes,

Alex.
”Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks finds its way to the ocean."
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:16 pm

rowyourboat wrote:
mlswe wrote:
A_Martin wrote:see the supreme attainments, page 119 on the following link
http://www.luangta.com/English/site/boo ... _part3.pdf
You will notice that there are three fetters that need to be cut:
fetter of doubt, fetter of morality, and fetter that the body is anatta
before you can attain stream entry


fetter of morality is a bit sloppily expressedI think, its the fetter of clinging to rites and rituals. Seeing that the forms of reverence isnt relevant but the contents.


Silabbata ('clinging to rites and rituals') - as for what changes with that, when it comes to stream entry-IMO the change is the belief that any rite or ritual can take a person to nibbana. This was particularly relevant during the Buddhas time because people were seeking nibbana using various rites and rituals- some would act like goats and cows! When the practitioner knows beyond a shadow of doubt that dukkha finally ceases by following the noble eightfold path, gen the idea of using some rite or ritual to get there doesn't arise any more. I hope that makes sense.

With metta

Matheesha


Very well said, your wisdom and expression brings joy, wishing you well
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby Sambodhi in Oz » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:20 pm

Matheesha / RYB Wrote:

Self-view (sakkaya ditti) arises because due to lack of samadhi


As per my understanding self view arises not due to lack of 'samadhi' but due to 'avidya', even 4th Jhana samadhi / 8th Jhana samadhi on its own cannot get one rid of self view. And 'Avidya' can be irradicated only through practise of Vipassana (along with samadhi + sila).

Further, Vipassana as taught by Goenkaji can and does take one to a point where self view with respect to body and mind both can break, these are higher nanas and are very subtle but, it does reach there.

Metta

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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby mlswe » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:19 pm

edited away
Last edited by mlswe on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby A_Martin » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:35 am

I kept myself very short, for the link I have given explains it in great detail how to reach sotapanna.
But for short, morality is the five precepts or for a monk the 227 rules. It is a wrong translation to say rites and rituals! Sila is morality! as seen in sila samadhi and panna.
Good luck with reaching sotapanna if you cannot cut the first three fetters, this also would contradict the Lord Buddhas teaching!
If people want to believe, that they do not need to cut the 10 fetters, just understand them, that binds us to the realm of rebirth, that is fine with me. Happy rebirth! People really seem to believe that they can think there way out of dukkha. Stop thinking for a while and you will experience a whole new dimension of life. Get into onepointedness and then you will have a preview of nibbana. Knowing is not studying, thinking or assuming, it is not feeling or memorizing. Knowing can only happen when the citta is completely empty of all preoccupations.
Metta
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby mlswe » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:44 am

My skills in english have fundamentally failed me I must admit. i will remove my post

thank you and wishing you well
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby starter » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:12 pm

"As per my understanding self view arises not due to lack of 'samadhi' but due to 'avidya', even 4th Jhana samadhi / 8th Jhana samadhi on its own cannot get one rid of self view. And 'Avidya' can be irradicated only through practise of Vipassana (along with samadhi + sila)."

-- I agree; more precisely (to me), through practice of four frames of mindfulness (body/feeling/mind/dhammas) according to Satipatthana, which helps one penetrate the reality of body/feeling/mind.

"It is a wrong translation to say rites and rituals! Sila is morality! as seen in sila samadhi and panna".
-- I kind of agree; the 2nd fetter could be the belief that sila alone can lead one to liberation, which is held by most religions. It doesn't hurt to cut both believes: belief of sila and belief of rites and rituals.
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby starter » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:30 pm

Hello pegembara,

Thanks for the following excellent quote. Looking forward to seeing more posts from you. Metta,

Starter

pegembara wrote:Adhimutta and the Bandits

Whatever's compounded,
wherever a state of becoming's obtained,
all that has no one in charge:
so says the Great Seer.
Whoever discerns this,
as taught by the Awakened One,
would no more grasp hold of any state of becoming
than he would a hot iron ball.
I have no 'I was,'
no 'I will be.'
Fabrications will simply go out of existence.
What's to lament there in that?
For one who sees, as it actually is,
the pure arising of phenomena,
the pure seriality of fabrications,
there's no fear.
When seeing the world with discernment
as on a par with grass & twigs,
finding no 'mine-ness,'
thinking, 'There's nothing of mine,'
he feels no sorrow.
Dissatisfied with this carcass,
I'm unconcerned with becoming.
This body will break up
and there will not be another.

Do as you like with this carcass.
From that I will feel
neither hatred nor love.

http://what-buddha-taught.net/accesstoi ... .than.html
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:20 am

The practice is sila leading to samadhi leading to panna. No samadhi, no panna (book learning might persist though).

Samadhi Sutta: Concentration
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2006–2010
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness.

"And what is the origination of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the origination of consciousness?

"There is the case where one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened. And what does one enjoy & welcome, to what does one remain fastened? One enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form. As one enjoys, welcomes, & remains fastened to form, there arises delight. Any delight in form is clinging. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:32 am

As for the meaning of 'silabbata' the meaning seems closer to what Starter suggested (a combination of precepts,rite and rituals - a life lived maintaining these that is). As for the next bit (ie it is 'silabbata paramasa'), I suspect this is the clinging to these practices but I may be inaccurate as to the Pali meaning of the term. It is important to remember that fetters (sanyojana) are things to be abandoned- hence clinging to rites and rituals and precepts fit nicely. To me it also represents very concrete thinking- 'if I do this one thing, I will get to that place'. The path is clearly more complex than that, possibly reflecting the complexity of the mind.

In any case, enjoy:


Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "Ananda, every precept & practice, every life, every holy life that is followed as of essential worth: is every one of them fruitful?"

"Lord, that is not [to be answered] with a categorical answer."

"In that case, Ananda, give an analytical answer."

"When — by following a life of precept & practice, a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth — one's unskillful mental qualities increase while one's skillful mental qualities decline: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitless. But when — by following a life of precept & practice, a life, a holy life that is followed as of essential worth — one's unskillful mental qualities decline while one's skillful mental qualities increase: that sort of precept & practice, life, holy life that is followed as of essential worth is fruitful."

That is what Ven. Ananda said, and the Teacher approved. Then Ven. Ananda, [realizing,] "The Teacher approves of me," got up from his seat and, having bowed down to the Blessed One and circumambulating him, left.

Then not long after Ven. Ananda had left, the Blessed One said to the monks, "Monks, Ananda is still in training, but it would not be easy to find his equal in discernment."

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: Seeing anatta in forms alone led to stream entry?

Postby Sambodhi in Oz » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:02 pm

RYB wrote :

The Blessed One said: "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns in line with what has come into being. And what does he discern in line with what has come into being? The origination & disappearance of form. The origination & disappearance of feeling... perception... fabrications. The origination & disappearance of consciousness.


This is nothing but Vipassana

and had earlier written:
Self-view (sakkaya ditti) arises because due to lack of samadhi


If u read the above fully what leads to discernment: Vipassana along with Samadhi. Samadhi of its own cannot get rid of self view.

Metta

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