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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:38 pm

My view ( and I realize it is _my_ view ) is that the root of Buddhist practice is meditation and the root of Buddhist meditation is learning to let go. The ideal with an out of the line person with a wrong opinion would be to state your opinion and then move on. Not be to religiously correct, but to keep with an overall self improvement project of cultivating a mind inclined toward letting go.

Not having read every word in the thread, it looked like you couldn't accept that someone was being wrong and that you were keeping an internet bickering match going like this was a typical web board.

Those are not things I haven't done and that I do not struggle with, so I found someone with your credentials doing that to be distressing.

"Geeze, if a psychiatrist trained in cognitive therapy and a student of a lama can't learn to let go of a sophmoric internet poster, what chance do I have? Should I even bother to try?"
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby PeterB » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:42 pm

More projections "Jnana4" buried within a rather odd idea of Buddha Dhamma...but feel free.
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:47 pm

PeterB wrote:More projections "Jnana4" buried within a rather odd idea of Buddha Dhamma...but feel free.


Call it what you like, you asked me what my opinion was and I gave it to you.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby PeterB » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:49 pm

I asked your opinion about what exactly ?
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:51 pm

Well, despite any cynicism that my stated position is likely to provoke my intention actually was simply to ask how members saw the intention of the sub header .
What followed was a kind of verbal Rorschasch..with projections and speculations of all kinds....how could it be " off topic" for the Dhamma free for all ?
Why did it provoke anger ?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby PeterB » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:54 pm

PeterB wrote:
PeterB wrote:The forum sub banner reads

"A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of the Theravada..."


Is any of this ambiguous and difficult to understand ?



This was the OP...any comments pertinent to it?

This was the ONLy thing I asked for opinions on..and what I got was opinion about just about everthing else... :smile:

My inegrity, my motivation, when I next planned to strangle a kitten....
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:07 pm

I like cats, don't do that. Have a good Thursday.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby Ben » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:12 pm

Hi Peter, so when are you planning on throttling a chicken?
(I'm joking!!)

The forum sub banner reads

"A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of the Theravada..."


Is any of this ambiguous and difficult to understand ?

No, its not difficult to understand. The only people, that I see, who have difficulty in understanding the focus of Dhamma Wheel are mostly visiting trolls and spammers. The vast majority of our Mahayanist and Vajrayanist friends are respectful and make a great contribution to the success of Dhamma Wheel. However, there is a very small minority, and very noticable by their behaviour, who prosetylize under the misguided view that they can save us from the delusion of "Hinayana". They either leave in disgust, get booted out for some TOS violation or settle down and contribute respectfully.kind r
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby PeterB » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:17 pm

Thanks Ben....as you have probably guessed I am rather sorry now that i asked what I thought was a pretty interesting but uncontroversial question. :?
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:19 am

Ben wrote:
The forum sub banner reads

"A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of the Theravada..."

Is any of this ambiguous and difficult to understand ?

No, its not difficult to understand. The only people, that I see, who have difficulty in understanding the focus of Dhamma Wheel are mostly visiting trolls and spammers. ...

I think you're being over-generous, Ben. I think most of these people do understand but choose to ignore/transgress.
The vast majority of our Mahayanist and Vajrayanist friends are respectful and make a great contribution to the success of Dhamma Wheel.

Agreed.
:namaste:
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby phil » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:49 am

Hi Peter I don't know what has been said in the whole of this thread but I really am sorry to hear that you want to strangle kittens. That won't solve anything and will just make Theravada look bad.

Seriously, living in Japan I am used to derogations/belittlements of Theravada by Mahayana folk and it used to bother me. Unless your point is that people who are not on the same page can't discuss productively, who cares? Didn't the Buddha say his teaching would deteriorate and disappear? People who might wish to promote Mahayana views at a Theravadan board are just providing helpful reminders of that. At least we don't get Soka Gakkai believers here...yet. :smile:

I remember when there was a fuss amoungst Christians about The Last Temptation of Christ and I wondered if they really had faith and focus on the Bible, why the fuss, it seemed like a confirmation of the lack of power of their faith. I don't know if that's quite the same here, but really, isn't people's opinion of Theravada just another one of the worldly conditions that we shouldn't let blow us around? But as I said before if your point is that it leads to a waste of time because of people not being on the same page, I see your point.
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby Jhana4 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:40 am

I don't know anything about the Mahayana tradition. Who do some of them look down upon Theravada. Do they think they have received "updated" teachings the way Muslims received an update on the new testament or the way Christinas received an update on the old testament?
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:16 am

Jhana4 wrote:I don't know anything about the Mahayana tradition. Who do some of them look down upon Theravada. Do they think they have received "updated" teachings the way Muslims received an update on the new testament or the way Christinas received an update on the old testament?

In one word: Yes.
If you want more detail, you'll have to wait here or try Wikipedia - I haven't got time now (sorry).
:namaste:
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:20 am

Greetings Jhana4,

Jhana4 wrote:Do they think they have received "updated" teachings the way Muslims received an update on the new testament or the way Christinas received an update on the old testament?

Without intending to sound condescending, the traditional account is that the Mahayana Sutras were protected by nagas in the naga realm until such time as people were ready for Mahayana.

But feel free to pop over to http://www.dharmawheel.net/ and verify whether that's accurate and whether individual Mahayanists might deviate from the traditional account of the origins of their Sutras.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby plwk » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:39 am

What do you think "A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of the Theravada " means ?

As how I 'think'...
1. 'Buddhist'
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/buddhist
1810, from Buddha + -ist. An earlier word in this sense was a direct borrowing of Skt. Bauddha "follower of Buddha" (1801 in Eng.)
2. 'Discussion':
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discussion
...the examination or consideration of a matter in speech or writing
3. 'forum'
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/forum
an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest.
4. 'Dhamma'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html
dhamma [dhamma; Skt. dharma]:
(1) Event; a phenomenon in and of itself;
(2) mental quality;
(3) doctrine, teaching;
(4) nibbana.
Also, principles of behavior that human beings ought to follow so as to fit in with the right natural order of things; qualities of mind they should develop so as to realize the inherent quality of the mind in and of itself.
By extension, "Dhamma" (usu. capitalized) is used also to denote any doctrine that teaches such things.
Thus the Dhamma of the Buddha denotes both his teachings and the direct experience of nibbana, the quality at which those teachings are aimed.
5. 'Theravada'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html
Theravada [theravaada]:
The "Doctrine of the Elders" — the only one of the early schools of Buddhism to have survived into the present; currently the dominant form of Buddhism in Thailand, Sri Lanka, and Burma. See also Hinayana. [MORE]
[Omitted definitions for 'a, on, the, of, the']

So......
a. It's just where (as in the forum-as defined above, as one knows it as 'Dhamma Wheel'), one can get a 'Buddhist' (as defined above, without any connotation/restriction to any particular School/Tradition) 'discussion' (as defined above) with regards to the Dhamma (as defined above) of the 'Theravada' (as defined above).
b. As the good ole Mods have pointed out before for the umpteen time, as long as the TOS is respected and adhered to, anyone, Buddhists or non Buddhists are welcomed here to discuss/contribute within the parameters.
c. However, on a deviating flip side, if the forum's above sub banner is changed to say 'A (Theravadin) Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of the Theravada', then perhaps the emphasis/definition would have been different. Then, the contents of the Forum may have to be exclusive and uncompromisingly conforming to the Theravada. By then, they can take Gampopa, Gorampa and all of the other pa's, Roshi this and that, yanas and isms, 'gilding the lilies', the crystal balls, the Ceiling/Attic/Basement Cats, 'What Bush/Blair did last winter' and whatnot to the other side of the town...

Ah how could I forget....there is the 'Dhamma free for all' and 'Lounge'....
I must visit my aunt in Melbourne one day and if my kamma permits, some of the interesting Aussies on this forum :toast:
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby Dan74-2ndincarnation » Fri Feb 18, 2011 4:47 am

(sorry to use another nik - lost my password again... :embarassed: )

But as there is a whole lotta talk about Mahayana and not a single Mahayana practitioner participating (and wisely so), please indulge a fool putting in his 2 cents worth...

Let me fess up that i have heard sectarian and belittling sentiments coming from Mahayana practitioners but not often and not when they were happy with their own practice. And to me this is what it boils down to. Personally I don't give a hoot about claims of Mahayana supremacy any more than I give a hoot about Theravada claims of being the only true and pure teaching. People can practice and get good results with either. Mahayana may well be superior to what it portrayed as the Hinayana and I don't think Theravadins need to be concerned about this in the least.

Heck, people can get good results with theistic religions too if they motivate them to focus on cultivating virtue. People have even been known to cultivate samadhi and vipassana through prayer, but this is really getting off topic.

Speaking of the topic (yeah, finally) two things come to mind

Image

Image

Mind you I've been guilty of both so I am trying not to throw stones here.

Personally I feel no urge to set any Theravadins straight. Instead I will happily bow before any Theravada practitioner who can lead by example, showing brahmaviharas and bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma. And I have no doubt that there are practitioners here and elsewhere I could learn a lot from. Of course human beings being human beings some will occasionally try to come and demonstrate their "superiority". I think that most people here behave very patiently and charitably toward these and I find the moderators' tolerance truly commendable.

So to me the banner is fine. I lurk quite often to read suttas and commentaries and sometimes (I confess) to sneak a peek of some juicy controversy or another (although here you don't even begin to compare to what we have in the American Zen scene, but this is another can of worms). In the past I have found it interesting when learned people have engaged in debate and whether or not they had an agenda, it was possible to learn from them. I like it when people with a clue challenge Mahayana tenets so likewise perhaps it is useful to some when some Theravada notions are questioned and explored in a respectful reasoned and honest manner or another perspective offered. In that sense I think Mahayana participation can be useful but seeing that I am neither learned nor do I have any issues with Theravada tenets (but only the highest respect for the Pali Canon) I try to stay away from debates and mostly read and ask questions when I have them.

Anyway differences in approaches do exist, but there is plenty of juice in both traditions. Time is short and I like Ben's sig in this regard.

_/|\_

(a wayward and mostly clueless practitioner of Korean Zen Buddhism)


PS In relation to this I recall the late patriarch of the Korean Chogye order Seongchol Sunim saying once that comparing Christian and Buddhist doctrine is like throwing an egg at a boulder but as far as practice in Korea is concerned it is just the opposite. So the proof is in the pudding isn't it, rather than in the collection of recipe books.
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby tobes » Sat Feb 19, 2011 8:42 am

As some with a foot in each camp, so to speak, I have to say that I find the attitudes and unfounded assumptions towards the Mahayana in this thread pretty disappointing. Even, a little bit scary.

As if, all Mahayana practitioners believe that the prajnaparmita sutras came from Naga's.

As if, the Hinayana is always deployed as a direct synonym for the Theravada.

As if, Mahayana practitioners all walk around with an attitude of superiority towards their Theravada brothers and sisters, and even if unstated for reasons of diplomacy, deep down believe this to be true.

As if there is not a seminal dialectical connection between the ideas spoken by the Buddha and preserved in the Pali canon and the shastras composed centuries later.

As if the Mahayana fidelity is not also to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha.

:anjali:
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Re: The Forum Sub Banner

Postby PeterB » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:05 am

I started the OP....I have put the lady down on the other side of the puddle and moved on...if any one wants to go on carrying her ....feel free.
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