Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

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Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby monkey_brain » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:14 pm

Any thoughts on the use of anti-androgen drugs to extinguish libido (in men) as a strategy? Such as Depo Prevara or Cyproterone acetate. :stirthepot: I suppose even more extreme measures are available :jedi:

I'm not saying I am considering it. But the though occurred to me recently, suppose you could push a button and never again feel sexual arousal or attraction. Would you do it? At this point in my life (48) I would probably say yes. Well, the closest thing currently would be chemical castration. How skillful is this means?
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:30 pm

Image
This guy controls his sexual desires by tying weights to his John Thomas and it works, because now he cannot get an erection. Well, he destroyed his erectile tissue, but by lifting weights with your weenie or taking drugs, the kamma is still there and the insight isn't.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby bodom » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:34 pm

How skillful is this means?


About as skillful as this:

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 56,0,0,1,0

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby nobody12345 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:35 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Image
This guy controls his sexual desires by tying weights to his John Thomas and it works, because now he cannot get an erection. Well, he destroyed his erectile tissue, but by lifting weights with your weenie or taking drugs, the kamma is still there and the insight isn't.

Agree.
If we follow the logic of 'using anti-androgen = the destruction of lust', then the people in the Intensive Care Unit in hospitals who are dependent on intravenous feeding are the one who are liberated from foods for good.
We can't depend on any outside forces including drugs to reach the other shore.
The only true aid/raft we have is Dhamma
Dhamma is alive and well.
The only problem is, we are spoiled by our kind hearted teacher (the Buddha) to the point that we are dreaming about an easy way or short cut to the liberation.
But there's no shortcut.
One's practice determines one's destiny.
Metta.
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby monkey_brain » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:00 pm

tiltbillings wrote: ... but by lifting weights with your weenie or taking drugs, the kamma is still there and the insight isn't.


How is the kamma still there if, arguendo, all sexual desire is gone?
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby bodom » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:11 pm

How is the kamma still there if, arguendo, all sexual desire is gone?


Because actions are still going to be committed under the influence of ignorance and hatred. Lust is only one of the fetters that need to be removed.

"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters." - AN 10.13


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby monkey_brain » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:39 pm

bodom wrote:
How is the kamma still there if, arguendo, all sexual desire is gone?


Because actions are still going to be committed under the influence of ignorance and hatred. Lust is only one of the fetters that need to be removed.

"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters." - AN 10.13


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

:anjali:


Well yes, presumably there will still be plenty more to work on besides Lust. This is hardly a reason not to remove this one, provided it was possible.
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby Annapurna » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:44 pm

monkey_brain wrote:Any thoughts on the use of anti-androgen drugs to extinguish libido (in men) as a strategy? Such as Depo Prevara or Cyproterone acetate. :stirthepot: I suppose even more extreme measures are available :jedi:

I'm not saying I am considering it. But the though occurred to me recently, suppose you could push a button and never again feel sexual arousal or attraction. Would you do it? At this point in my life (48) I would probably say yes. Well, the closest thing currently would be chemical castration. How skillful is this means?



Would a chemical brew instantly deliver all fools into enlightenment?
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby monkey_brain » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:59 pm

Annapurna wrote:
monkey_brain wrote:Any thoughts on the use of anti-androgen drugs to extinguish libido (in men) as a strategy? Such as Depo Prevara or Cyproterone acetate. :stirthepot: I suppose even more extreme measures are available :jedi:

I'm not saying I am considering it. But the though occurred to me recently, suppose you could push a button and never again feel sexual arousal or attraction. Would you do it? At this point in my life (48) I would probably say yes. Well, the closest thing currently would be chemical castration. How skillful is this means?



Would a chemical brew instantly deliver all fools into enlightenment?



None that I'm aware of. :thinking:
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:39 pm

monkey_brain wrote:Any thoughts on the use of anti-androgen drugs to extinguish libido (in men) as a strategy? Such as Depo Prevara or Cyproterone acetate. :stirthepot: I suppose even more extreme measures are available :jedi:

I'm not saying I am considering it. But the though occurred to me recently, suppose you could push a button and never again feel sexual arousal or attraction. Would you do it? At this point in my life (48) I would probably say yes. Well, the closest thing currently would be chemical castration. How skillful is this means?

Remember that sex happens between the ears as much as between the legs. For a cautionary tale, read about Alan Turing.

:namaste:
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby Nibbida » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:28 am

Drugs that lower androgens are a physiological train wreck. Depression and trouble concentrating are common side effects. So you might squash your sex drive, but at what cost to your practice and health?

If I wanted to reduce sex drive or compulsiveness about it, SSRI medications would be my choice. For most people, the sexual side effects are a nuisance, but in your case they would be what you're looking for.

The goal in Buddhism, as I understand it, is not to suppress craving, but to observe it so that one can allow it to pass with equanimity rather than craving. Rather than craving being an obstacle, it is an opportunity to sharpen one's skills.
"Dispositions of the mind, like limbs of the body, acquire strength by exercise." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby Sylvester » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:53 am

monkey_brain wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: ... but by lifting weights with your weenie or taking drugs, the kamma is still there and the insight isn't.


How is the kamma still there if, arguendo, all sexual desire is gone?



Even if the drugs prevent the mula-kamma based on lust from arising, the Anusayas still lurk deep beneath. As do the Asavas. I seriously doubt if a lifetime administration of Lucrin Depot will cross over to the next life, when the Asavas and Anusayas are just waiting...
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby ground » Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:54 am

monkey_brain wrote:Any thoughts on the use of anti-androgen drugs to extinguish libido (in men) as a strategy? ... How skillful is this means?


Frankly I cannot see the skillfulness of such ponderings at all.

Why not benumb dukkha through chemical means? Ah ... the buddha did not teach the noble chemical path, right?

Kind regards
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby plwk » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:41 am

Why not benumb dukkha through chemical means? Ah ... the buddha did not teach the noble chemical path, right?

:rofl:
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby andre9999 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:19 pm

You could just go get snipped at the doctor... it would kill most of the sex drive. Alternatively, there are plenty of drugs on the market with a side effect of reduced libido that could help break the initial habit. You know, get the ball rolling, so to speak.
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby perkele » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:23 pm

I remember a story (a Pali Sutta or not?) where one of the Buddha's monks cut off his penis, because he could not rid himself of sexual desire.
Then the Buddha said he had cut off the wrong thing. He should have cut off desire, not his penis. Don't know where I heard or read this and wether or not it's in the suttas.
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby meindzai » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:38 pm

Good call perkele. Found this in the Vinaya:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .ch10.html

Self-mutilation. A bhikkhu who cuts off his own genitalia incurs a thullaccaya.

Now at that time a certain bhikkhu, tormented by dissatisfaction, cut off his own penis. They reported this matter to the Blessed One (who said), "When one thing should have been cut off, that foolish man cut off something else."

The "thing that should have been cut off," the Sub-commentary notes, was the obsession for passion.
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby beeblebrox » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:01 pm

If someone takes the pills to stop desire, and then stops taking them, he'll probably get the desire back. There are men who can't get erections, they still want Viagra anyway. If the erection tissues of that yogi gets repaired, he'll probably end up bricking it down again. It's because the root issues (desire, aversion, and ignorance) still haven't been resolved here.
Last edited by beeblebrox on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby Annapurna » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:29 pm

monkey_brain wrote:
Annapurna wrote:
monkey_brain wrote:Any thoughts on the use of anti-androgen drugs to extinguish libido (in men) as a strategy? Such as Depo Prevara or Cyproterone acetate. :stirthepot: I suppose even more extreme measures are available :jedi:

I'm not saying I am considering it. But the though occurred to me recently, suppose you could push a button and never again feel sexual arousal or attraction. Would you do it? At this point in my life (48) I would probably say yes. Well, the closest thing currently would be chemical castration. How skillful is this means?



Would a chemical brew instantly deliver all fools into enlightenment?



None that I'm aware of. :thinking:


Monkey brain,

hormones all depend on each other, in a way. I'm sure there is a more professional way to say it, but I can't think of any.

If you mess with one hormone, you usually affect all the others as well.

And that is a dangerous thing to do, because we know a lot, but we don't know everything.

Think of this:

Women who take the pill can experience all sorts of side effects:

Loss of libido, depression, headaches, inflammations of the veins, headaches, weight gain, an increased risk of stroke and heart attack, perhaps even cancer...

It's dangerous to mess with hormones.
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Re: Extinction of Lust Through Chemical Means

Postby pariyatti » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:42 pm

Hello to All:

We are nothing but a chemical lab inside; don't be lazy, do the practice. Also, let us not assume only men 'lust"

Be Well :juggling:
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