Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

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Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:06 am

I see some rather clunky translations to the effect "all compounded things are impermanent". Someone who hasn't studied might not get those translations and they sound poor. What is an example of something that isn't made of components?

Couldn't these translations do just as well or better stating " all things are impermanent? "
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:49 am

Nibbana.

That is all.
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:53 am

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby ground » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:27 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:Nibbana.

That is all.


so it is "a thing"?

Kind regards

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:28 am

TMingyur wrote:
Wizard in the Forest wrote:Nibbana.

That is all.


so it is "a thing"?

Kind regards
It is a dhamma.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby ground » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Wizard in the Forest wrote:Nibbana.

That is all.


so it is "a thing"?

Kind regards
It is a dhamma.


Then as soon as there is a term which evokes meaning there is a dhamma, right?

Kind regards

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:31 am

TMingyur wrote:
Then as soon as there is a term which evokes meaning there is a dhamma, right?

Kind regards
Depends.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby ground » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Then as soon as there is a term which evokes meaning there is a dhamma, right?

Kind regards
Depends.


on what?

Or can you give an example of a term that evokes meaning but is not a dhamma.

Kind regards

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:37 am

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
Then as soon as there is a term which evokes meaning there is a dhamma, right?

Kind regards
Depends.


on what?

Or can you give an example of a term that evokes meaning but is not a dhamma.

Kind regards
Dhammas are ways of talking about experience. One can have experience without necessarily using terms.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby ground » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:Dhammas are ways of talking about experience. One can have experience without necessarily using terms.


But if "Dhammas are ways of talking about experience" then "dhammas" would be just another term for "words" because "words", more precise the application of words, is the way of talking.

However since you are referring to "experience" what you appear to be wanting to imply is that if "words" do refer to experience then the references of words are called "dhammas", right?

Kind regards

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:52 am

Greetings TMingyur,

Thoughts of nibbana are conditioned things.

The experience of nibbana itself is unconditioned.

Unconditioned by what?... Unconditioned by any ignorance that would lead to the experience being arrested and bracketed as a thing. In other words, it is an asankhata-dhamma.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:54 am

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Dhammas are ways of talking about experience. One can have experience without necessarily using terms.


But if "Dhammas are ways of talking about experience" then "dhammas" would be just another term for "words" because "words", more precise the application of words, is the way of talking.

However since you are referring to "experience" what you appear to be wanting to imply is that if "words" do refer to experience then the references of words are called "dhammas", right?

Kind regards
Why?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby ground » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:But if "Dhammas are ways of talking about experience" then "dhammas" would be just another term for "words" because "words", more precise the application of words, is the way of talking.

However since you are referring to "experience" what you appear to be wanting to imply is that if "words" do refer to experience then the references of words are called "dhammas", right?

Kind regards
Why?

I have asked you a question.

I asked the question in order to understand what you are referring to with the term "dhamma"

Kind regards

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:03 am

We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. -- Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby ground » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:06 am

tiltbillings wrote:We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. -- Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.


Yes. That is why I asked what you are referring to with the term "dhamma". I did not ask what a "dhamma" is.

Kind regards

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:12 am

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. -- Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.


Yes. That is why I asked what you are referring to with the term "dhamma". I did not ask what a "dhamma" is.

Kind regards
Because of what a dhamma "is" is why I am talking about dhamma. The OP is asking what "things" are unconditioned. Sabbe dhamma anatta, all dhammas are empty of self-ness. Dhammas is understood to be inclusive of nibbana. The point is that there is no "thing" that is free of conditioning; rather, there "is" only the experience not being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby ground » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:38 am

So

Firstly:
tiltbillings wrote:We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. -- Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.


Since you said
"Nibbana is a dhamma."
and
"Dhammas are ways of talking about experience."

I may conclude that nibbana denotes a relation to a thought or to an instance of "being conscious of ... (i.e. to a mind and its object)".

This aspect appears to be conditioned, conditioned by "thought" or "being conscious of ...".

Secondly:
tiltbillings wrote:Because of what a dhamma "is" is why I am talking about dhamma. The OP is asking what "things" are unconditioned. Sabbe dhamma anatta, all dhammas are empty of self-ness. Dhammas is understood to be inclusive of nibbana. The point is that there is no "thing" that is free of conditioning; rather, there "is" only the experience not being conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.


This aspect, the experience, appears to be conditioned too. Why? Because it is not being "conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion" and because this "not being conditioned" is not the "state of being" in the first place there have to be causes and conditions for it to arise.

To summarize:
Now "nibbana" denotes the thought of such a kind of "experience". It is not the experience, it does not refer to the experience directly but it refers to the thought about such an experience. This sounds too complicated. It appears more straightforward to simply say "'Nibbana' qua term is just a thought".

But since "nibbana" qua term is a just a term one may apply any other term one would want to to refer to the thought about any kind of experience. E.g. someone would want to to say "I experienced 'God'" thus applying the term "God" to refer to an experience.

So IMO a valid question is:
What renders a term "valid" for an alleged experience that one has not yet experienced?

And if any alleged experience is a "dhamma" to which a term may refer then "God" refers to a dhamma too.

If "God" does not refer to a dhamma but "nibbana" does then what is this differentiation based on?

Kind regards

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:47 am

TMingyur wrote:so it is "a thing"?

Kind regards


Yes, it is a thing. It is a word used to describe the unconditioned and the uncompounded. That is why I said, "That is all". There is no way to articulate Nibbana. None, so this is a useful term to describe it in relation to our discernment and understanding. I recommend not becoming carried away by words.
Last edited by Wizard in the Forest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:48 am

TMingyur wrote:. . .
Nonesense. Nibbana is experience free from conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion. It is the only "thing" that is. One does not need to descend into that quagmire of nagarjunian nonsense to make a simple point that addresses the OP.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Examples of things that are NON-compounded ?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:51 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
TMingyur wrote:so it is "a thing"?

Kind regards


Yes, it is a thing. It is a word used to describe the unconditioned and the uncompounded. That is why I said, "That is all".
Now, you are going to be subjected to TMingyur's nagajunian analysis. You don't want that. Honestly, there is no "the unconditioned and the uncompounded" other than the individual who has been nibbanized -- that is to say, one who is no longer conditioned/compounded by greed, hatred, and delusion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson


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