Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:24 pm

Note to the admins & mods:

DW just isn't the place to have the depth of discussion I cared to have with this thread. People are offended and angered. That was never my intent. Please feel free to delete this thread.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:29 pm

I don't think this thread should be deleted at all- it is a good opportunity for us to learn all about our defilements and perhaps even our underlying assumption re how we related to the world.

Jhana4, you speak of 'science' as if any scientist claims s/he has come to the end of understanding the world- since none has, and previous theories get superseded by newer ones- I put it to you that science is at best, work in progress. What do you think about that?

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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby Prasadachitta » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:30 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Hi Gabriel. No, I don't realize how conceited it sounds. I'm taking "conceited" in the literal sense, not in the sense of an insult when it is used in questions that are similar to yours. I don't pretend to have all of the answers. My post, in part, was about concerns I have of western Buddhists believing things that don't seem to be supported by the suttas I've been reading.


I mean you to take conceited in the literal sense and not as insulting. There is plenty of room in Buddhism for interpretation. All Buddhists are doing this through our practice and the ideas we have with regard to that practice. In my experience Buddhists discuss what aspects of the teachings are most valuable to contemplate which is an individual inquiry. Certainly there are a number of teachings I am aware of from the Suttas which stress a personal exploration of what is true and of value and what is not without taking anything for granted(See the Chanki Sutta). The Buddha prescribed a particular way of approaching and engaging with this exploration which he said was sure to succeed. The problem with your post is it does very little to invite this kind of inquiry. There are plenty of threads where people on this chat board are vigorously debating and expressing all kinds of nuanced ways of understanding what the Buddha was trying to communicate. How does your post further this endeavor?

Take Care

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:35 pm

The thread is not going to be deleted.

I have to admit I am not sure what the OP was looking for in starting this thread. The responses were fairly predictable in that for some their Buddhism is very much religion (and an unquestioning acceptance of it in those terms), for others it is a bit stripped down to what is thought to be its basics, giving us differing points of view.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby Nibbida » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:04 pm

Jhana4 & others,

I think that Jhana4's posting and purposes were very useful. Whether or not others agree, disagree (or more realistically agree on certain points more than others) is beside the point. It's food for thought and it causes people to examine what they understand, fish through their knowledge of the suttas, and examine how they interpret them. Even in the worst case scenario, it's a useful exercise. If we don't ask questions like this then we risk getting into groupthink, intolerance, and narrowly homeogeneous thinking. This is contrary to what the Buddha taught, as I understand it, and many of us have seen on previous Buddhist web forums what happens when this mentality takes over.

No matter how outlandish any statement or question posed by anyone may seem, there are more and less skillful ways to respond to it. As Jhana4 pointed out, a discussion like this can turn into an opportunity for exchange and learning, or an aversion-fest. The Buddha pointed out in the simile of the saw that even if bandits were to hack out limbs off, to harbor anger toward them would not be consistent with his teachings. In light of that, I have trouble believing that he would justify hostility on a web forum. If someone seems sorely mistaken, at the very least, compassion seems to be the appropriate response to misunderstanding (i.e. avijja) and suffering. Otherwise, what the hell (realm) are we doing here, other than exercising our fingers on a keyboard? Communicating on this forum is itself a form of Dhamma practice. We seem to have done a pretty good job of this at Dhamma Wheel, so I want to emphasize this and encourage it.

With regards to giving offense, fittingly, all one has is one's kamma. "It is impossible to control whether or not one give's offense" (Cheri Huber). Whether people respond to your post with offense, curiosity, anger, kindness, etc. reflects their is their choices, conditioning, etc. The fruits of your kamma are yours, and that of their kamma are theirs.

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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:13 pm

Cheri Huber? Geez. I guess you can never tell where "wisdom" is to be found.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:29 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Jhana4, you speak of 'science' as if any scientist claims s/he has come to the end of understanding the world- since none has, and previous theories get superseded by newer ones- I put it to you that science is at best, work in progress. What do you think about that?


I think you are right about that point and wrong about me claiming that science thinks it has all the answers. I don't believe I wrote that and one of the reasons I appreciate science is that it doesn't claim to have answers it doesn't have.

I wrote that I felt for the answers science claims to have the quality of those answers is much higher ( rigorous evidence, etc ) than the answers of other people, methods and institutions.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:30 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The thread is not going to be deleted.


My preference would be to have my deleted.
Last edited by Jhana4 on Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:06 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Jhana4, you speak of 'science' as if any scientist claims s/he has come to the end of understanding the world- since none has, and previous theories get superseded by newer ones- I put it to you that science is at best, work in progress. What do you think about that?


I think you are right about that point and wrong about me claiming that science thinks it has all the answers. I don't believe I wrote that and one of the reasons I appreciate science is that it doesn't claim to have answers it doesn't have.

I wrote that I felt for the answers science claims to have the quality of those answers is much higher ( rigorous evidence, etc ) than the answers of other people, methods and institutions.


Agreed. Now what do you think of parallel universes and the moon not existing unless someone is looking at it :reading:

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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby nathan » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:22 pm

In the two articles linked below, those here with an interest may find an introduction into some of the researchers who's work is concerned with developing some insights into the nature and purposes of violence in relation to the sacred (in other words religion) as these were understood and employed socially and in terms of how these perceptions were modified by various revolutionary teachings introduced in the near east and far east in the centuries leading up to and during and following the axial period.

Obviously religion has predominantly come to be viewed differently again in the current prosaic period or the period of scientific materialism which still predominates today, however understanding the historical development of religious meaning and thought can be very variously beneficial in terms of understanding from where and in relation to what the subsequent and current meanings and uses of religion have developed.

Violence and religion: cause or effect?
by Rene Girard

Girad_Violence_and_religion.pdf
found here:
http://www.mimetictheory.net/bios/articles/

and

Violence and Disruption in Society - A Study of the Early Buddhist Texts
by Elizabeth J. Harris
found here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el392.html
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby nathan » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:33 am

This article,

INTERSUBJECTIVITY AND EMBODIMENT by Jean-Pierre Dupuy

Dupuy_Embodiment.pdf

also found here:

http://www.mimetictheory.net/bios/articles/

may also be of interest to some here. It carries forward the academic reflections on the role of human mimesis and imitation into an examination its role in the shaping of the historically more recent and present day social and economic structures.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby Nibbida » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:26 am

tiltbillings wrote:Cheri Huber? Geez. I guess you can never tell where "wisdom" is to be found.


The usefulness of an idea is more important than who says it.
"Dispositions of the mind, like limbs of the body, acquire strength by exercise." --Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:27 am

Nibbida wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Cheri Huber? Geez. I guess you can never tell where "wisdom" is to be found.


The usefulness of an idea is more important than who says it.
True enough. Even Osho said a few useful things.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby PeterB » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Nibbida wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Cheri Huber? Geez. I guess you can never tell where "wisdom" is to be found.


The usefulness of an idea is more important than who says it.
True enough. Even Osho said a few useful things.



Like......" the stash is in the suitcases under the bed "...... ;)
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Re: Sensations, Bait & Switch, Self Deception & Religion

Postby Nibbida » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Nibbida wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Cheri Huber? Geez. I guess you can never tell where "wisdom" is to be found.


The usefulness of an idea is more important than who says it.
True enough. Even Osho said a few useful things.



Eeesh. Osho... Point well taken.


Okay, here's the same kinda thing from Henry David Thoreau:

"He who receives an injury is an accomplice of the wrong-doer."
--Henry David Thoreau
"Dispositions of the mind, like limbs of the body, acquire strength by exercise." --Thomas Jefferson

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