clw_uk wrote:
Nibbana is the end of dukkha, once you have a basic grasp and insight into the four noble truths, then nibbana doesnt have to be taken on faith anymore, faith in buddhism is only needed until you have insight yourself, so its just there to get you going so to speak
I guess that's the key point.
Continuing my "devils advocate" line, it seems to me that those who say that they don't need faith any more might be setting the bar on what "have insight yourself" actually means at a rather low level.
One obvious place to put that bar is at stream entry. Where would you place it?
I don't think you like the commentarial analyses, but the "Progress of Insight" is one way of classifying it where you might want to set a standard:
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.buddhanet.net/imol/develop.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1. Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind (nāma-rūpa-pariccheda-ñāna)
2. Knowledge by Discerning Conditionality (paccaya-pariggaha-ñāna)
3. Knowledge by Comprehension (sammasana-ñāna)
4. Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away
(udayabbaya-ñāna) in its weak stage, involving the Ten Corruptions of Insight
5. Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga-ñāna)
6. Awareness of Fearfulness (bhayatupatthāna-ñāna)
7. Knowledge of Misery (ādīnava-ñāna)
8. Knowledge of Disgust (nibbidā-ñāna)
9. Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muñcitu-kamyatā-ñāna)
10. Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankhānupassana-ñāna)
11. Knowledge of Equanimity about Formations (sankhār'upekkhā-ñāna)
12. Insight Leading to emergence (vutthānagāminī-vipassanā-ñāna)
13. Knowledge of Adaptation (anuloma-ñāna)
14. Maturity Knowledge (gotrabhū-ñāna)
15. Path Knowledge (magga-ñāna)
16. Fruition Knowledge (phala-ñāna)
17. Knowledge of Reviewing (paccavekkhana-ñāna)
18. Attainment of Fruition (phalasamāpatti)
19. The Higher Paths and Fruitions
Metta
Mike