the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Wizard in the Forest
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the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:45 am

If Nibbana is unconditioned is it permanent?
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darvki
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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Postby darvki » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:57 am

It isn't any "thing" to be permanent or impermanent so I think the question is invalid.

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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Postby Ben » Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:59 am

Dear WITF

Nibbana being unconditioned it is beyond the realm of dukkha and anicca. As a dhamma, it remains anatta. Nibbana being unconditioned it is beyond comprehension of the conditioned mind.
With great respect to your line of enquiry I recommend that you concentrate on that which is germane to liberation. Life being fickle, it can end at any time.
May you realize Nibbana, yourself, in this life.
kind regards

Ben
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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:51 am

I think its a valid question, albeit not a very fruitful one.
Dhuva means permanent, stable, fixed, reliable, sure. The Buddha has pointed out the path to attain the unborn, unconditioned, and permanent nibbāna.

Dhuvagāmin leading to permanence, i. e. Nibbāna S iv.370.
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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Postby Akuma » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:56 am

Wizard in the Forest wrote:If Nibbana is unconditioned is it permanent?


Not sure if I interprete this correctly but you are assuming that it has to be permanent because its unconditioned? Thats not necessarily the case. Unconditioned here means that its conditioned by absences, namely the absence of ignorance etc. Its called this way because in indian philosophy absences as being non-entities have no conditions. Space for example is also unconditioned based on the same idea, being spatial absence of rupa.
In the same way tho the absence of coca-cola in a glass is unconditioned but not necessarily permanent.

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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Postby meindzai » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:59 pm

I tend to think of it as "not-impermanent" but try not to bother with any conception beyond that. I believe in Abhidhamma it is considered permanent.

-M

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Re: Nibbana permanent or impermanent?

Postby Parth » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:27 pm

Such questions need to be practised for (i.e. practising vipassana and other parts of the noble eight fold path), everything else is a worthless speculation. Lets not waste time there.

Metta

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Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Dugu » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:36 pm

Or is nibbana also cessation of all forms of consciousness?

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby daverupa » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:37 pm

Nothing is "in" nibbana; when something (e.g. a flame) goes out, there is nothing which is "in the out-ness".
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Dugu » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:42 pm

daverupa wrote:Nothing is "in" nibbana; when something (e.g. a flame) goes out, there is nothing which is "in the out-ness".


Yes, how may I rephrase my question so that it may be applied properly?

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby daverupa » Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:56 pm

It seems to me that nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred, delusion, and that parinibbana is the final breakup of the aggregates - including vinnana, of course, which might be enough to address your question. One confusing thing might relate to understanding the vinnana of a living arahant: there is no way to identify an arahant with any of the aggregates at all, yet how can one account for the continuing function of the five aggregates-as-residue?

I've seen liberated consciousness described in various ways in the Suttas; I make the most sense of SN 22.55: "When that consciousness is unestablished, not coming to growth, nongenerative, it is liberated. By being liberated, it is steady; by being steady, it is content; by being content, he is not agitated. Being unagitated, he personally attains nibbana." This is Ven. Bodhi's translation; link goes to Ven. Thanissaro's.

Ultimately, arahants are called tathagata as they are simply "ones who are thus"; after parinibbana, not even this can be said.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Nyana » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:46 pm

:goodpost:

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Zom » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:41 pm

Or is nibbana also cessation of all forms of consciousness?


Quite interesting that nobody asks: Is nibbana is also a cessation of the body? Or - cessation of the feelings? 8-)

How wise was the Buddha when he spoke like this:

"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby reflection » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:44 pm

There is no "in Nibbana".

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:44 pm

Nibbāna is described as the cessation of perception and feeling, not as the cessation of consciousness. If there were no awareness while the Noble Ones were abiding in Fruition Consciousness (phallacitta), they would be no different to someone who is unconscious or fast asleep.

Both path consciousness (maggacitta) and fruition consciousness (phalacitta) are types of consciousness, not the absence of consciousness. Nibbāna cannot be seen, heard, smelt, tasted, or touched. However, it can be cognized by the mind.

See my article on What is Nibbāna?, which collects some key points from the Milinda Pañha.
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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Zom » Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:59 pm


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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby vinasp » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:52 pm

Hi Dugu,

Quote:
"Or is nibbana also cessation of all forms of consciousness?"

1. Do you mean nibbana for one still alive, or some supposed after-death state?

2. If you mean for one still living, why would anyone even ask this question?
Are you confused by certain passages in the Nikaya's?

Please provide more background, to help us understand the question.

Kind regards, Vincent.

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby ground » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:09 am

The way leading to the cessation of consciousness is just this Noble Eightfold Path

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html



Now ... is right view right?

Kind regards

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby Dugu » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:00 pm

vinasp wrote:Hi Dugu,

1. Do you mean nibbana for one still alive, or some supposed after-death state?



I suppose my question refers more to after-death state.

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Re: Are there any consciousness or awareness in Nibbana?

Postby vinasp » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:50 am

Hi Dugu,

Quote:

"I suppose my question refers more to after-death state."

We are all, of course, free to believe whatever we wish, so I expect that
you will receive a wide range of answers to your question. Many forum
members seem to be mixing different Buddhist traditions. But, here is the
opinion of a modern writer from within the Theravada tradition.

From: What the Buddha taught, by Walpola Rahula - online version - Link:

http://www.quangduc.com/English/basic/6 ... ht-04.html

"Some popular inaccurately phrased expressions like ‘The Buddha entered into Nirvāna or Parinirvāna after his death’ have given rise to many imaginary speculations about Nirvāna. [22]The moment you hear the phrase that ‘the Buddha entered into Nirvāna or Parinirvāna’, you take Nirvāna to be a state, or a realm, or a position in which there is some sort of existence, and try to imagine it in terms of the senses of the word ‘existence’ as it is known to you. This popular expression ‘entered into Nirvāna’ has no equivalent in the original texts. There is no such thing as ‘entering into Nirvāna after death’. There is a word parinibbuto used to denote the death of the Buddha or an Arahant who has realized Nirvāna, but it does not mean ‘entering into Nirvāna’. Parinibbuto simply mean ‘fully blown out’ or ‘fully extinct’, because the Buddha or an Arahant has no re-existence after his death."

------------------------------ End of Quotation ------------------------

I am not sure that I agree with this myself, but it is probably close to
the official position of Theravada ( if there is one).

For myself, I am happy to allow these questions to remain a mystery which
is beyond my capacity to understand.

Kind regards, Vincent.


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