Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:59 pm

daverupa wrote:In this critique, they seem to be exclusive tools and not merely additional.

This thread pertains to issues concerning 20th century interpretations of a commentarial teaching which postdates the suttas by almost 1000 years Dave. In the sutta strata of the canon this issue doesn't even exist. Thus, the source materials relevant to this discussion are the Abhidhamma and Visuddhimagga.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby daverupa » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:11 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:In the sutta strata of the canon this issue doesn't even exist.


Indeed. A simpler critique of Kearney, then, is to say "that's nowhere in the SuttaVinaya". Further gyrations are excessive.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:28 pm

daverupa wrote:Indeed. A simpler critique of Kearney, then, is to say "that's nowhere in the SuttaVinaya".

Yes.

daverupa wrote:Further gyrations are excessive.

Unfortunately there is at least one member here who wants to read into the suttavinaya this idea of nibbāna -- the not-fabricated (asaṅkhata) -- as being a blackout-nothingness or a state of unconsciousness. Thus, it may be prudent to demonstrate that the Theravāda Abhidhamma and main commentaries never held such a notion. It may also very well be excessive. But it's sometimes less palatable to say nothing than to say something. Especially as this member in question is trying to play the role of a meditation instructor here on DW.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby cooran » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:34 am

Thanks Mateesha(rowyourboat) for your knowledgeable effort in responding in this topic:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8158&start=100#p128702

Thanks Sylvester for bringing your knowledge and understanding to this topic
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8158&start=100#p128683

I’ve learned a lot from both of you and it is good to know posters with your level of study and understanding are willing to persevere with issues on DhammaWheel with equanimity, despite the potshots at you personally and the constant eel-wriggling.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby saltspring » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:17 am

Thanks Nana for your heroic efforts in this thread, particularly when you come up against some of Kearny's students.
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby cooran » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:27 am

Hello saltspring,

saltspring said: ....when you come up against some of Kearny's students.


Your post is incorrect. As far as I know, in this thread, I am the only member who has attended a Retreat run by Patrick.

Responses have come from those seasoned practitioners, well-versed in the Dhamma, using the Teachings of the Buddha, to try to clarify the issues that only the OP seems to see.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Reductor » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:43 am

cooran wrote:Hello saltspring,

saltspring said: ....when you come up against some of Kearny's students.


Your post is incorrect. As far as I know, in this thread, I am the only member who has attended a Retreat run by Patrick.

Responses have come from those seasoned practitioners, well-versed in the Dhamma, using the Teachings of the Buddha, to try to clarify the issues that only the OP seems to see.

with metta
Chris


OP isnt the only one that doubts that this attainment is noble. But he is better able by far to make the case than me. I have only my experiences and a cursory review of the nikayas.

So thanks nana.

But also thank you all who would put the time and energy forward in presenting the differing sides.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby saltspring » Tue Apr 26, 2011 3:48 am

You are right Cooran, you are Kearny's only student, but you are wrong if you think only Nana has trouble with Kearny and his ilk.

Kind regards
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:11 am

saltspring wrote: Kearny and his ilk.
And who might they be?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:14 am

tiltbillings wrote:And who might they be?

Why should you care?
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:37 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And who might they be?

Why should you care?
Why shouldn't I care? I am curious as to who gets lumped into this basket of purveyors of a hinayana-ism (to use your term to describe Kearney's teachings). By your own account, this teaching, to which you which you have strongly objected, is not Kearney's alone, so lest I fall afoul of it by reading or listening to "his ilk," it is probably not a bad thing to know who they are.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Dmytro » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:43 am

Well... perhaps the participants involved would like to ask some knowledgable monk from Mahasi tradition for clarification?
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:Why shouldn't I care? I am curious as to who gets lumped into this basket of purveyors of a hinayana-ism (to use your term to describe Kearney's teachings). By your own account, this teaching, to which you which you have strongly objected, is not Kearney's alone, so lest I fall afoul of it by reading or listening to "his ilk," it is probably not a bad thing to know who they are.

Bringing this issue out into the light of day is enough. There isn't anything to be gained here by naming more names. When ppl are informed they can make informed decisions for themselves.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:51 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Why shouldn't I care? I am curious as to who gets lumped into this basket of purveyors of a hinayana-ism (to use your term to describe Kearney's teachings). By your own account, this teaching, to which you which you have strongly objected, is not Kearney's alone, so lest I fall afoul of it by reading or listening to "his ilk," it is probably not a bad thing to know who they are.

Bringing this issue out into the light of day is enough. There isn't anything to be gained here by naming more names. When ppl are informed they can make informed decisions for themselves.
Heavens. Unless one reads everything a teacher has written how are you to know. For all I know Joseph Goldstein could be among "his ilk," and quite frankly I would like to know, given the he has been a teacher with whom I have work and for whom I have a great deal of respect. So, who are they?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:57 am

tiltbillings wrote:So, who are they?

Seriously. Give it a rest.
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 26, 2011 4:59 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, who are they?

Seriously. Give it a rest.
Actually, it was not your msg to which I replied. Your POV is noted, and the question still stands.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:02 am

tiltbillings wrote:Actually, it was not your msg to which I replied. Your POV is noted, and the question still stands.

Ok. Understood. But I'm the one who should answer. It's unfortunate that this is an issue at all. The motivation for creating this thread in the first place was to point out that Rowyourboat is posting here on DW with this mistaken view, all the while playing the role as a meditation instructor. Kearney's paper just served as an explicit reference to this type of view of nibbāna. Plus, I read Kearney's other paper where he tried to crap all over Kornfield and I figured that he was worthy of being on the receiving end.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:33 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, it was not your msg to which I replied. Your POV is noted, and the question still stands.

Ok. Understood. But I'm the one who should answer. It's unfortunate that this is an issue at all. The motivation for creating this thread in the first place was to point out that Rowyourboat is posting here on DW with this mistaken view, all the while playing the role as a meditation instructor. Kearney's paper just served as an explicit reference to this type of view of nibbāna. Plus, I read Kearney's other paper where he tried to crap all over Kornfield and I figured that he was worthy of being on the receiving end.
Kearney as a proxy for RYB. That makes me a bit uncomfortable. I think it would have been better to dismantle the the ideas rather than going after the person(s).
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby Nyana » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:37 am

tiltbillings wrote:Kearney as a proxy for RYB. That makes me a bit uncomfortable. I think it would have been better to dismantle the the ideas rather than going after the person(s).

Yeah, well, it's the same view. And it was the view which I was criticizing. I have no problem with using Kearney's words to make the point.
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Re: Concerning Kearney's "Development of Insight"

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:38 am

In light of the personal comments, I am thinking that this thread probably needs to be brought to an end. I would suggest that Geoff and Sylvester make summary statements about the issue of the "lights out" experience as nibbana as they understand it, and anyone else is welcome to add their comments within the next few hours, and then it is over (for the time being). No more personal stuff.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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