Alex123 wrote: kirk5a wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Do you imply that some sort of consciousness/awareness remains in pariNibbana?
We aren't talking about parinibbana. You said "they've seen nibbana." I am simply asking you whether this "seeing of nibbana" as you understand it, is distinguishable from the state of unconsciousness?
They have understood that everything that arises (including consciousness of all and any kind
) will cease. There is no eternal and uncaused consciousness that will live happily ever after. Nibbana with remainder, - is cessation of greed, anger & delusion. This can be known.
We need to be careful in how we present
this issue, though, even if from one perspective our words are correct, so that people don't get the wrong idea. If people infer from our presentation that the Buddha taught annihilationism, or nihilism, then we would be misrepresenting him: "And how is the monk a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered? He has abandoned the conceit of self, has cut it off at the root, removed it from is soil like a palmyra tree, brought it to utter extinction, incapable of arising again. Thus is the monk a Noble One who has taken down the flag, put down the burden, become unfettered.
"When a monk's mind is thus freed, O monks, neither the gods with Indra, nor the gods with Brahma, nor the gods with the Lord of Creatures (Pajaapati), when searching will find on what the consciousness of one thus gone (tathaagata) is based. Why is that? One who has thus gone is no longer traceable here and now, so I say.
... "So teaching, so proclaiming, O monks, I have been baselessly, vainly, falsely and wrongly accused by some ascetics and brahmans: 'A nihilist is the ascetic Gotama; He teaches the annihilation, the destruction, the non-being of an existing individual.'
"As I am not as I do not teach, so have I been baselessly, vainly, falsely and wrongly accused by some ascetics and brahmans thus: 'A nihilist is the ascetic Gotama; He teaches the annihilation, the destruction, the non-being of an existing individual.'
"What I teach now as before, O monks, is suffering and the cessation of suffering."
-from The Discourse on the Snake Simile (Alagaddupama Sutta, MN 22)
I add this just out of concern for anyone who might, as I once did, wrongly grasp the Teaching in that particular area and be put off Dhamma as a result.
Then the Blessed One, picking up a tiny bit of dust with the tip of his fingernail, said to the monk, "There isn't even this much form...feeling...
perception...fabrications...consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."