Can Mahayanists achieve true Buddhahood

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Re: Can Mahayanists achieve true Buddhahood

Postby PeterB » Sat May 28, 2011 10:21 am

Akuma wrote:
Peter wrote:This view accords nicely with the Mahayana Subsumist position which simply subsumes the Theravada into the Mahayana.


An intention cant hold a position.


Sophistry. :smile:
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Re: Can Mahayanists achieve true Buddhahood

Postby Stephen K » Sat May 28, 2011 10:42 am

Maybe a small clarification may be needed:

Can followers of the Mahayana tradition, by practicing Mahayana, attain true Buddhahood, according to the Theravada?


I.e., I realize anyone can attain Buddhahood, but the question is rather: "Can the practice of Mahayana lead to real Buddhahood?"
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Re: Can Mahayanists achieve true Buddhahood

Postby BlackBird » Sat May 28, 2011 11:54 am

Stefan wrote:Maybe a small clarification may be needed:

Can followers of the Mahayana tradition, by practicing Mahayana, attain true Buddhahood, according to the Theravada?


I.e., I realize anyone can attain Buddhahood, but the question is rather: "Can the practice of Mahayana lead to real Buddhahood?"


No. Not the Theravadin Buddhahood. They have a different conception of the what a Buddha is.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Can Mahayanists achieve true Buddhahood

Postby Stephen K » Sat May 28, 2011 12:02 pm

BlackBird wrote:
Stefan wrote:Maybe a small clarification may be needed:

Can followers of the Mahayana tradition, by practicing Mahayana, attain true Buddhahood, according to the Theravada?


I.e., I realize anyone can attain Buddhahood, but the question is rather: "Can the practice of Mahayana lead to real Buddhahood?"


No. Not the Theravadin Buddhahood. They have a different conception of the what a Buddha is.


Thanks!

What is the difference then?
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Re: Can Mahayanists achieve true Buddhahood

Postby Dan74 » Sat May 28, 2011 12:13 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Kare wrote:Probably. I think all human beings have the capacity for awakening. But the Mahayanists have to get rid of a lot of unnecessary baggage first, so they have chosen a very long detour ...


Tilt and Kare I am sure know that blanket statements about "their long detours" is at best applicable to only a fraction of people practicing Mahayana and at worst a gross misunderstanding.

As it was stated - painting all with the same sloppy brush is unbecoming of a scholar, I think.
So, how would you answer the OP?:

Can followers of the Mahayana tradition really attain Buddhahood, according to the Theravada?


From what I understand of the Buddhahood as understood by Theravada, ie liberation from delusion and suffering, then yes. Otherwise it would've been a bogus path.
_/|\_
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Re: Can Mahayanists achieve true Buddhahood

Postby BlackBird » Sat May 28, 2011 12:17 pm

You might be best to ask a Mahayanist. A monk of quite some qualification in Tibetan Buddhism explained it to me a while back I can't quite remember his exact words.
It has a lot to do with their conception of nibbana and what their version of it is about.

He spoke about the bhumi levels in Mahayana, according to them one of the lower bhumi's corresponds to the arahant, and their bodhisattva system goes well beyond that. Since in Theravada a Buddha is a self described arahant, that would mean that our conception of the Buddha is wrong to a Mahayanist. (or more to the point they believe our conception is incomplete) They believe in something about non-stopping nibbana, that the Buddha was enlightened a long time ago and his appearance on Earth was just an emanation i.e. he continues to operate in Samsara.

None of this the Theravada accepts. The Buddha's paranibbana and that of the arahant are in essence identical, once the flame goes out, the flame goes out. Done.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: Can Mahayanists achieve true Buddhahood

Postby Dan74 » Sat May 28, 2011 12:40 pm

Yep, this is one take on it.

The other take is that what is commonly understood as "Hinayana arahatship" in Mahayana is not what is mean by arahant in Theravada.

Yet another take is not worrying about these matters at all and concentrating on the practice.

And there are more takes. All within Mahayana. It is not one partyline-toeing school.
_/|\_
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