Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby santa100 » Thu Jun 23, 2011 1:50 pm

It's the second to last paragraph, as rendered by Ven. Thanissaro:

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have a [sufficient] measure of conviction in me, a [sufficient] measure of love for me, are all headed for heaven. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags."
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jun 23, 2011 2:07 pm

cooran wrote:Hello pegembara,

Would you mind pointing out exactly where in the Sutta the verse you quote can be found. Here are two translations - one by Thanissaro Bhikkhu and the other
Nyanaponika Thera:

MN 22 - Alagaddupama Sutta: The Water-Snake Simile
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html

with metta
Chris

2nd last sentence.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby beeblebrox » Thu Jun 23, 2011 3:02 pm

chownah wrote:My view is that not only should we trust our own judgement but that our own judgement is the only thing we have so better start sharpening that judgement or it is likely to lead you astray.


Yes, I think that's one of the seven factors for the awakening (dhamma vicaya). Having faith in something doesn't mean that we should toss out this factor.

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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby issani » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:05 am

Hi people, I am new to this forum so thanks for including me. I have been reading the different comments re Linda Claire, and thought that you might like to hear from one of her long-term students. Yes, her claim of enlightenment is challenging to many....even before I met Linda, I had a discussion with my ayurveda lecturer who was critical of her claim to enlightenment that he had seen in articles in a local "new agey"newspaper. I had also read some of her articles and found that her words resonated with those of other enlightened people I had read about. I asked my lecturer whether an "enlightened" person keeping this information to them selves couldn't be seen as a kind of false modesty....much later I met Linda whilst purchasing a book in a store she was working in....I recognised her and we spoke about meditation and consciousness for about 20 minutes. I found her to be completely open, accessible, down to earth and unassuming, ordinary even. Gaining freedom from the dominance of the mind and deep conditioning is an epic task and accomplishment, and I have found Linda to be refreshingly realistic when describing the difficult and often arduous nature of this journey. Her teachers included three "enlightened" beings (including two Japanese Zen masters) over her seven year process of intensive commitment to her meditation practice and her teachers (she's no slouch in the discipline department). Whilst describing ultimate reality as a non-dual state, she often questions the so called non dual teachers who shun formal meditation practice in favour of a "just be what you are" attitude where no effort is required. Yes, she says realization is an effortless state, but in the sense that a virtuoso instrumentalist plays effortlessly after years of practice. Having had the opportunity to spend hours meditation with Linda, witnessed her generosity and consistency over many years, and having felt intense energetic effects from the very start, I need no convincing as to the genuine nature of her claim. I totally respect other's opinions however, and also know that Linda isn't at all concerned about other's opinions. I agree with the comment by one of your contributers who asks, how does a western non-denominational person who wishes to share their knowledge and guide others "come out" and communicate to the broader society? I am very grateful to Linda for her honestly as I wouldn't have had the rare opportunity to be the student of a realized person without it. She has de-mystified and made accessible a state which can all to easily appear like an unattainable fantasy...of course this is much less threatening to the ego also. I hope this might help "enlighten"you a little (no pun intended)....thanks for listening.
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:37 am

Commendable.
Truly, she sounds extremely nice, gracious, generous....

But all those qualities are abundant in many who are NOT enlightened.

I think it is more for the observer, to determine another person's worth.

I remember calling a teacher I once had, "Master".
He recoiled in astonishment.
"I would never presume to say I am your Master!" he declared.
I replied -
"Of course you wouldn't. But that is my view of how valuable you and what you teach, are to me."

He merely smiled, and bowed in thanks.
Friends around us, agreed with me.
He asked us to not call him that publicly, because he did not wish such an accolade to distract from his teachings which, he was quick to point out, he too had learnt from HIS master....

"Did YOU call him Master, or was that a self-proclaimed title from him?" I asked.

He laughed and responded, "Touché!"
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby pilgrim » Tue Apr 15, 2014 10:54 am

Why would an enlightened person ask you for money to teach you the Dhamma ?
Goenka was the spiritual head of more than 200 centres, teaching thousands of students for decades, never took a cent and never claimed to be anything. See the difference?
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:43 pm

pilgrim wrote:Why would an enlightened person ask you for money to teach you the Dhamma ?
Goenka was the spiritual head of more than 200 centres, teaching thousands of students for decades, never took a cent and never claimed to be anything. See the difference?


^ This, and also from a Theravada perspective, a lay person can gain enlightenment, but ordains within 7 days. In her website she also refers to several teachers she has, who she believes are enlightened. From a Theravada perspective her teachers (who are not monastics) would also not be enlightened by the fact that they are still lay people.

She does not claim to be a Theravada Buddhist, so she might be able to call herself enlightened by the views of some other tradition or something new agey, but not by Buddhism / Theravada.
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Jetavan » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:14 pm

cooran wrote:Hello all,

Does anyone know anything about this teacher Linda Clair, and claims of being enlightened?
http://simplemeditation.net/teacher/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta
Chris

Is enlightenment possible south of Papua New Guinea?
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:49 am

Any good person who practices seriously and diligently for a sustained period should be able to gain insight and realisations of emptiness or not-self — say, within a week or two of full-time practice, with a wide range of variation in abilities. Some may do so more quickly, while others may never succeed. Such insights may well confirm one's faith in the efficacy of the Dhamma to the point of dedicating one's life to its practice and propagation.

Still, Purification of View is a long way from the first stage of the Path, and without having attained nibbāna no one can claim to be "enlightened" in the sense described in the Theravāda tradition. Being “enlightened” doesn't necessarily mean Arahantship, even Stream-winners have special qualities of perfect honesty and integrity that ordinary people lack, so they may well be better teachers than learned monks without such deep insights.

Lay people do not have the luxury of living off of alms, like monks and nuns, so there is nothing intrinsically wrong with them charging a fee for meditation classes and retreats, though $100 an hour is exorbitant in my opinion.

The Vinaya rules for monks and nuns proscribe making any claims to enlightenment, even if they are true, and accepting money is also prohibited. If they are followed it ensures that the Dhamma is offered without any strings attached to it. Lay people who want to teach the Buddha Dhamma should follow the same principles — they should make no claims about having reached such and such a stage, and they should charge no fees, but accept only what people wish to give them of their own volition. Goenka's centres manage to survive and thrive without charging for meditation retreats.
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:04 am

http://www.simplemeditation.net/

Looking through this site, watching the video, reading what there is to read: It is just soft spoken feel good drivel.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:38 am

Sometimes, it feels good to have drivel; but a ton of drivel does not even an ounce of Enlightenment bring.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:04 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Sometimes, it feels good to have drivel; but a ton of drivel does not even an ounce of Enlightenment bring.


I'm sorry, but do you know what drivel is?
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:27 pm

beeblebrox wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Sometimes, it feels good to have drivel; but a ton of drivel does not even an ounce of Enlightenment bring.


I'm sorry, but do you know what drivel is?

Yes.
It's either to speak nonsense, or dribble saliva from the mouth. it comes from a root in Old English draff meaning discarded dregs (of drink), or fluid refuse...

And all this with no aid of Google.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:46 pm

WordWeb is useful freeware. Right-click on a word to show the definition in WordWeb.
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Viscid » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:27 pm

tiltbillings wrote:http://www.simplemeditation.net/

Looking through this site, watching the video, reading what there is to read: It is just soft spoken feel good drivel.


I think you're being unfair.

Let's be charitable and say she is enlightened in some way, or to some degree. Does that enlightenment necessitate a particular pedagogical style? If she doesn't teach as Theravadin Masters teach, is she a worthless teacher?

From what I see on her site, she seems quite capable of providing a service to laypeople, encouraging them to engage in self-inquiry and meditative practice. There's not much on her website which you can't find in any spiritual/self-help book, but I don't think that should count against her-- we are privileged to exist in a time where such information is so readily available. If people engage with her and obtain something wholesome and valuable which they wouldn't have otherwise, then good for her. Why criticize? When we can identify something she says which could be ultimately harmful to her students, then we have grounds for criticism.
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:16 pm

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:http://www.simplemeditation.net/

Looking through this site, watching the video, reading what there is to read: It is just soft spoken feel good drivel.


I think you're being unfair.

Let's be charitable and say she is enlightened in some way, or to some degree. Does that enlightenment necessitate a particular pedagogical style? If she doesn't teach as Theravadin Masters teach, is she a worthless teacher?

From what I see on her site, she seems quite capable of providing a service to laypeople, encouraging them to engage in self-inquiry and meditative practice. There's not much on her website which you can't find in any spiritual/self-help book, but I don't think that should count against her-- we are privileged to exist in a time where such information is so readily available. If people engage with her and obtain something wholesome and valuable which they wouldn't have otherwise, then good for her. Why criticize? When we can identify something she says which could be ultimately harmful to her students, then we have grounds for criticism.
Unfair? I don't think so, not at a $100 AUD per hour.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Viscid » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:34 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Unfair? I don't think so, not at a $100 AUD per hour.


I'm willing to bet she caters to wealthy individuals who can afford it. I ask this question genuinely: Does that make her a bad teacher? Do good teachers necessarily have to teach at low cost to accommodate as many people as possible, or are they allowed to be so selective?
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:45 pm

Viscid wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Unfair? I don't think so, not at a $100 AUD per hour.


I'm willing to bet she caters to wealthy individuals who can afford it. I ask this question genuinely: Does that make her a bad teacher? Do good teachers necessarily have to teach at low cost to accommodate as many people as possible, or are they allowed to be so selective?
Good teacher, bad teacher? The video creeped me out a bit. I'd save my $100 AUD for a something else and keep looking.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby manas » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:02 pm

issani wrote:I agree with the comment by one of your contributers who asks, how does a western non-denominational person who wishes to share their knowledge and guide others "come out" and communicate to the broader society?


Hi issani

there are quite a few 'western', lay teachers of Dhamma and meditation who, while embodying the principles of Dhamma to a greater or lesser extent, still however make no such claims of 'enlightenment'. For example, Joseph Goldstein, Jack Kornfield or Sharon Salzburg, just to name a few. One's own enlightenment doesn't need to be proclaimed; just proclaiming the Dhamma is sufficient.

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Re: Linda Clair - claims of being enlightened?

Postby Viscid » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:09 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Good teacher, bad teacher? The video creeped me out a bit. I'd save my $100 AUD for a something else and keep looking.


Ah, I haven't checked out the video yet.. but if she comes off as 'creepy' that's probably because she is trying to appear a certain way and it's recognizable as being a superficial, inauthentic construction.. we tacitly know how authentic people operate and when someone tries to present themselves as 'looking enlightened' it actually looks quite eerie. Perhaps authenticity is something she needs to work on herself.
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