Buddhism and Abortion.

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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Fede » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:49 pm

Jechbi wrote:
Peter wrote:
if I understand it from what you're saying is, that the same single action can gather both wholesome, and unwholesome Kamma.

I do not think that would be possible.
I suppose that depends on what one means by a "single action."


No, Peter's right.

Remember, that the action must be intentional.

So one would have to be intentionally doing good in one way whilst intentionally doing "non-good" in the other.

Have you ever performed an action intending, willfully to do both harm and good at the same time?

Intentionally, mind.......

I cannot truly say I ever have.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:26 pm

Fede wrote:
Jechbi wrote:
Peter wrote:if I understand it from what you're saying is, that the same single action can gather both wholesome, and unwholesome Kamma.

I do not think that would be possible.
I suppose that depends on what one means by a "single action."

Fede wrote:No, Peter's right.

Remember, that the action must be intentional.

So one would have to be intentionally doing good in one way whilst intentionally doing "non-good" in the other.

Have you ever performed an action intending, willfully to do both harm and good at the same time?

Intentionally, mind.......

I cannot truly say I ever have.


considering there is Dark and Bright Kamma with Dark and Bright results, I would have to disagree, have you ever done an action with the intention of doing good, knowing that some of the consequences of this action would be harmful? obviously it is not always possible to know before hand the result, but in certain instances it is possible, such as intervening in a fight to protect the one being attacked, this action has the intent and for knowledge that you may have to restrain the attacker which could do them harm, one such professional which would have this dilemma is the police, or security officer, or in the case of the OP a doctor, but doctors can (in GB at least) prescribe some medications which have quite a few negative side effects, but they are prescribing them (we hope at least) not for the side effects, but rather the actual results these medications are designed to have, knowing full well that these side effects exist and can happen.

"What do you think, Rahula: What is a mirror for?"

"For reflection, sir."

"In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection."
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Fede » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:55 pm

Manapa wrote:considering there is Dark and Bright Kamma with Dark and Bright results, I would have to disagree, have you ever done an action with the intention of doing good, knowing that some of the consequences of this action would be harmful? obviously it is not always possible to know before hand the result, but in certain instances it is possible, such as intervening in a fight to protect the one being attacked, this action has the intent and for knowledge that you may have to restrain the attacker which could do them harm, one such professional which would have this dilemma is the police, or security officer, or in the case of the OP a doctor, but doctors can (in GB at least) prescribe some medications which have quite a few negative side effects, but they are prescribing them (we hope at least) not for the side effects, but rather the actual results these medications are designed to have, knowing full well that these side effects exist and can happen.


This is not a good analogy.
Everything has a side effect.
All drugs, be they natural or chemical, have a side-effect.
Remember, the original intention is to do good.

The intention of the mendicant or officer is to prevent greater harm, because the side-effects are secondary.
Even though he knows thew drugs have side-effects, the intention of the Doctor is to alleviate the immediate suffering and to offer assistance. He is weighing up the consequences of his actions, but at no time is he actually INTENDING to cause harm, as well as good......
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:30 pm

Hi Fede,
Here's me thinking the initial intention is to do something! good and bad are not the first intention, the first intention is to act, thus reflection is always needed. but if you want to go to a doctor who ignores the side effects then don't let me stop you! there is a reason Lithium is no longer a common prescription for Bi-polar patients.
and the next part of MN61 is -
"Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Jechbi » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:46 pm

Hi Fede,

Fede wrote:No, Peter's right.

Remember, that the action must be intentional.

So one would have to be intentionally doing good in one way whilst intentionally doing "non-good" in the other.

Have you ever performed an action intending, willfully to do both harm and good at the same time?

Intentionally, mind.......

I cannot truly say I ever have.

I think it may be a little more complicated that just saying one person is right in this discussion. I think what we're really talking about is a "course of action" rather than a "single action."

If by "single action" you mean a single mind moment, that's one thing. But if you are talking about the way our decisions and actions play out in a practical sense, that's another thing. In the example provided, the woman who authorized the abortion for her 9-year-old daughter who had been raped is being held out as performing akusala kamma by authorizing the abortion. Yet it's hard to imagine that she committed this action while intending willfully to do only harm.

Her "action" of authorizing the abortion might be regarded from one perspective as a "single action," but when you look at it more closely, the entire length of time it took her to speak to the doctor, sign the forms, etc., involved countless mind moments during which she may have committed both kusala kamma as well as akusala kamma.

In answer to your question: "Have you ever performed an action intending, willfully to do both harm and good at the same time?" Any answer will depend on what you mean by a "single action." Broadly speaking, I'd say, yes, I have engaged in conduct with the intention, willfully, to do both harm and good.

I think it's more applicable to talk about a "course of action" rather than a "single action." The truth of the matter is that we don't always know whether our course of action is kusala or akusala, but certainly it can be a blend of the two.

I'm putting this forward mindful of the fact that my understanding may be flawed, and I welcome feedback and clarification.

Metta
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:06 pm

hi Jechbi
although it could be argued that the conversation/s the mother and Doctor had were them reflecting on whether or not the action should be done, I do wish there was a nail on the head Icon for your offering.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:39 pm

Doing an action is one thing.
Reflecting before the fact on whether it should be done is another thing.
Reflecting after the fact whether it should have been done is yet another thing.
So far three things. In any real life example of a course of action there's probably more, much more.
Last edited by kc2dpt on Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:41 pm

"And what is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates a bodily fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious... a verbal fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious... a mental fabrication that is injurious & non-injurious... He rearises in an injurious & non-injurious world... There he is touched by injurious & non-injurious contacts... He experiences injurious & non-injurious feelings, pleasure mingled with pain, like those of human beings, some devas, and some beings in the lower realms. This is called kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result."
— AN 4.235

Honestly, I'm not sure what this means.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:56 pm

MN 61 wrote:Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do.

Thinking about this quote I'm not so sure my earlier statement...

Peter wrote:Intentionally acting to save one person, knowing that as a result of that action another person might die, is a wholesome act.
Intentionally acting to kill one person, knowing that as a result of that action another person might live, is an unwholesome act.

...is correct. It is unclear to me how this MN 61 quote is to be applied to a situation like I presented a few posts ago. It is also unclear how this sutta quote fits in with Ven. Dhammanando's statement from another thread:

Ven. D. wrote:The Vinaya principle that applies here is that the mere knowing about the probable outcome of an action does not in itself constitute the willing of that outcome. For example, in a forest monastery one of the bhikkhus' daily duties is to sweep the leaves on the forest paths. This sweeping will most probably, indeed almost inevitably, lead to the accidental injury or deaths of some ants and other small insects. But even though a bhikkhu knows that this is likely to happen, he does not incur any offence for the deaths that his sweeping causes, except in the unlikely event that his decision to sweep leaves is prompted by a desire that insects will be killed.

Performing an operation with the intent to save everyone involved, knowing the operation creates a probable outcome of injury or death does not constitute the willing of that injury or death. On the other hand, if one reflects that the action could likely lead to the affliction of others is it then unfit to do?

I will note that saying an action is "fit to do" is not the same thing as saying a person is compelled to do that action. On the other hand, saying an action is "unfit to do" does compel one to not do it. So it seems to me the OP's situation is still clear: it is fit to try an operation to save the mother but it is unfit to perform an abortion. Therefore the doctor, if he chose to adhere to Buddhist principles, would be compelled to not perform the abortion. I know some people maintain that we are compelled to try to help others; I am not sure this is a valid Buddhist principle.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Fede » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:50 pm

Which brings us neatly to the First of the Four Noble Truths.

Life is Difficult/unsatisfactory/suffering....

The ways in which this Truth resonates are legion.......

If a person becomes a Doctor, s/he swears by the Hippocratic Oath.
Nowhere in the Hippocratic Oath - either in the original version, nor in the more modern one - does the phrase "Do No Harm" appear.
This is presumably because as a qualified medical practitioner, at one time or another, their duty as a doctor will necessitate inflicting 'harm' - in order to, at the very least, attempt to ensure a positive and good outcome.

In view of the above discussion, it would be interesting to know, from a Buddhist Doctor, just how they manage to combine their duties and obligations of being a doctor, with the following of their Buddhist persuasion.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7654432.stm

Interesting to note here, the comment on abortion.... not a moral decision, but one apparently based on the premise that performing an abortion by 'pessary' would actually cause a secondary sickeness to develop. However, many modern versions have missed the subtlety of the original meaning.....and have altered the entry....

The article below carries further moot points . . .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -Oath.html
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby kc2dpt » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:35 pm

Perhaps of note: MN 61 is taught to a 7 year old.
- Peter

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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:37 pm

Peter wrote:Doing an action is one thing.
Reflecting before the fact on whether it should be done is another thing.
Reflecting after the fact whether it should have been done is yet another thing.
So far three things. In any real life example of a course of action there's probably more, much more.


I couldn't agree more :goodpost:
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:21 am

Lord Buddha wanted to help us alleviate suffering. The suffering that accompanies abortion is beyond devastating. The results of that action are terrible in this life or next. In his wisdom that is beyond words and his incredible compassion, he gave us a map to traverse samsara in such a way that we could work to remove ignorance that causes us to make choices that lead to further suffering, unwholesome karma, and rebirth.

This is how I see it. In his kindness, Buddha suggested the ways to do things to bring us to cessation and relief. There are all kinds of things we can do. We can terminate pregnancy, exterminate critters, you name it. We can take life. But the results are terrible. I don't judge people, and I don't think the Buddha judged people. But he pointed the way to dispel ignorance and dukkha. That picture necessarily includes unwholesome karma.

:namaste:
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:16 am

Peter wrote:Perhaps of note: MN 61 is taught to a 7 year old.


so
the majority of the Suttas are to those who went forth (as Rahula had done) does that make say the satipatthana sutta (where reflection is also mentioned) less applicable to lay people who are meditating? reflect is also another word for contemplate.
to a arahant we are all 7 years old and age is not a dictate on who recieves what teaching.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Fede » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:15 pm

Just as an update:

THis from the Times newspaper OnLine, on the 16th of this month.....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 917765.ece
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:38 pm

Fede wrote:Just as an update:

THis from the Times newspaper OnLine, on the 16th of this month.....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 917765.ece


Thank-you Fede,
it is good to see
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Fede » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:40 pm

Can't you just see the discussion in the vatican...?

Archbishop Rino Fisichella: Good gracious, Archbishop Sobrinho, what were you thinking?
Archbishop Sobrinho: Well, I thought the church was pretty adamant on its view about abortion....
ARF: Yes, well, we are.... but I mean to say.... she's only 9! And you really think her Stepfather is guilty of a lesser crime of rape?
AS: Well, I thought that, as he was adhering to the Pope's message on not using Condoms, he was a far better Christian.....
ARF: Hmmmm, yes, I see what you mean! tricky, eh?
AS: Too complicated for me!
ARF: I guess it's difficult, because we are celibate, and not family men....
AS: ......*in embarassed hushed tones*...Speak for yourself..... :embarassed:

Allegedly....... ;) :tongue:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Mar 19, 2009 2:55 pm

I have to admit I don't like moral high ground, but if I are going to be on any ground, I would sooner be on the other shore! :D
I like the dialogue

Fede wrote:Can't you just see the discussion in the vatican...?

Archbishop Rino Fisichella: Good gracious, Archbishop Sobrinho, what were you thinking?
Archbishop Sobrinho: Well, I thought the church was pretty adamant on its view about abortion....
ARF: Yes, well, we are.... but I mean to say.... she's only 9! And you really think her Stepfather is guilty of a lesser crime of rape?
AS: Well, I thought that, as he was adhering to the Pope's message on not using Condoms, he was a far better Christian.....
ARF: Hmmmm, yes, I see what you mean! tricky, eh?
AS: Too complicated for me!
ARF: I guess it's difficult, because we are celibate, and not family men....
AS: ......*in embarassed hushed tones*...Speak for yourself..... :embarassed:

Allegedly....... ;) :tongue:
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Will » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:41 pm

The wheel of life has birth & death as two spokes of the wheel. But it is a wheel, a circle. Conscious life is a continuum, a stream. The body, whether embryo, fetus, baby, child or adult is only one visible effect of a conscious being that is not visible and not physical. Abortion frustrates the free flowing of the stream of life just as completely as murder of an adult body.

Quoting Narada Mahathera: "We are born from the matrix of action (kammayoni). Parents merely provide us with a material layer. Therefore being precedes being. At the moment of conception, it is Kamma that conditions the initial consciousness that vitalizes the foetus." The Mahatanhasamkhaya Sutta mentions three factors are needed for conception: The father/mother, the mother's fertile period & the being-to-be-born.

But how "human" is this being-to-be-born? The Elucidation of Consciousness Sutra says: "When the consciousness leaves the [previous] body it carries all the body's attributes with it. It assumes an [ethereal] form as its body... Because it has the senses, it has feelings and subtle memory and can tell good from evil... Feeling, memory, and good & evil [karmas] go wherever the consciousness-seed goes... It knows that it has left one body to receive another one, knows the good and evil karmas [it has performed], knows that it is accompanied by the karmas, and knows that it will be reincarnated together with the karmas to undergo due karmic results..."

The present Dalai Lama said plainly: "Consciousness enters at the time of conception itself. To murder a human means to kill either a human or something forming as a human, the latter referring to the period from right after conception until birth."
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Annapurna » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:55 am

Theravada Buddhism views the beginning of life at conception. So abortion is about killing life. First precept.

If a 12 year old gets pregnant through rape, or paternal abuse, she may be traumatized already.

If she is physically not fully matured yet, as many girls who start menstruating as almost children, she may get traumatized even further. So saving her life and health may have priority, depending on her state.

What the Catholic churchs thinks or says is none of my biz.

I couldn't care less. Nor am I interested in condemning them.

All this fingerpointing at others bores me to death.

Edit:


PS: I'd say that a 12 year old has a higher developped awareness and ability to suffer than an 8 weeks old embryo.

But it's always a pity if it gets ripped from the mothers womb, -the safest place a human being normally has on this planet...
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