Buddhism and Abortion.

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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:58 am

edited to include quote...below.
Last edited by Sanghamitta on Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:18 am

Annapurna wrote:Theravada Buddhism views the beginning of life at conception. So abortion is about killing life. First precept.

If a 12 year old gets pregnant through rape, or paternal abuse, she may be traumatized already.

If she is physically not fully matured yet, as many girls who start menstruating as almost children, she may get traumatized even further. So saving her life and health may have priority, depending on her state.

What the Catholic churchs thinks or says is none of my biz.

I couldn't care less. Nor am I interested in condemning them.

All this fingerpointing at others bores me to death.

Having read and reread your post Annapurna I have no idea what your position is on this issue, and I see no evidence of "finger pointing " on the thread.

Edit:


PS: I'd say that a 12 year old has a higher developped awareness and ability to suffer than an 8 weeks old embryo.

But it's always a pity if it gets ripped from the mothers womb, -the safest place a human being normally has on this planet...
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Annapurna » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:16 am

Will wrote:
The present Dalai Lama said plainly: "Consciousness enters at the time of conception itself. To murder a human means to kill either a human or something forming as a human, the latter referring to the period from right after conception until birth."


Hi, Will, I recall a discussion from e sangha, where HHDL quailified his stance thus:

Social stances

The Dalai Lama reminds that according to Buddhist precepts abortion is an act of killing,[37] although he has said that there can be an exception for "if the unborn child will be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the parent", qualifying his approval or disapproval according to each individual abortion.[38]


From http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=we ... dw&cad=rja

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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:22 am

Is there a view that the Dalai Lama's opinion has particular significance ?
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Will » Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:36 pm

Annapurna wrote:
Will wrote:
The present Dalai Lama said plainly: "Consciousness enters at the time of conception itself. To murder a human means to kill either a human or something forming as a human, the latter referring to the period from right after conception until birth."


Hi, Will, I recall a discussion from e sangha, where HHDL quailified his stance thus:

Social stances

The Dalai Lama reminds that according to Buddhist precepts abortion is an act of killing,[37] although he has said that there can be an exception for "if the unborn child will be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the parent", qualifying his approval or disapproval according to each individual abortion.[38]


From http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=we ... dw&cad=rja

Metta,

Annapurna :anjali:


Hiho Annapurna. The Dalai Lama was not quoted for his "approval", but because he gave a concise statement about Buddha's teaching on abortion.

Karma-vipaka is always, for any act, modified by the motive. So the mother & the abortionist's reluctance or eagerness to abort will, respectively, lessen or increase the bad effects of such killing karma.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:10 pm

Can you point me to the Buddhas teaching on abortion that the Dalai Lama pointed to Will ?
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Will » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:12 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:Can you point me to the Buddhas teaching on abortion that the Dalai Lama pointed to Will ?


No, I do not know his source.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Modus.Ponens » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:15 pm

Hi Sanghamitta

I'm not sure if this is what your looking for or if it was already quoted but here it goes, from "Buddhist Monastic Code I" by Ajahn Thanissaro:


The Vibhaṅga defines a human being as a person "from the time consciousness first becomes manifest in a mother's womb, up to its death-time." It follows from this that a bhikkhu who intentionally causes an abortion — by arranging for the operation, supplying the medicines, or giving advice that results in an abortion — incurs a pārājika. A bhikkhu who encourages a woman to use a means of contraception that works after the point of conception would be guilty of a pārājika if she were to follow his advice.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Annapurna » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:17 pm

Will wrote:
Annapurna wrote:
Will wrote:
The present Dalai Lama said plainly: "Consciousness enters at the time of conception itself. To murder a human means to kill either a human or something forming as a human, the latter referring to the period from right after conception until birth."


Hi, Will, I recall a discussion from e sangha, where HHDL quailified his stance thus:

Social stances

The Dalai Lama reminds that according to Buddhist precepts abortion is an act of killing,[37] although he has said that there can be an exception for "if the unborn child will be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the parent", qualifying his approval or disapproval according to each individual abortion.[38]


From http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=we ... dw&cad=rja

Metta,

Annapurna :anjali:


Hiho Annapurna. The Dalai Lama was not quoted for his "approval", but because he gave a concise statement about Buddha's teaching on abortion.

Karma-vipaka is always, for any act, modified by the motive. So the mother & the abortionist's reluctance or eagerness to abort will, respectively, lessen or increase the bad effects of such killing karma.


"Hiho..."

I like that. :smile:

I agree.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:26 pm

Will wrote:
Annapurna wrote:
Will wrote:
The present Dalai Lama said plainly: "Consciousness enters at the time of conception itself. To murder a human means to kill either a human or something forming as a human, the latter referring to the period from right after conception until birth."


Hi, Will, I recall a discussion from e sangha, where HHDL quailified his stance thus:

Social stances

The Dalai Lama reminds that according to Buddhist precepts abortion is an act of killing,[37] although he has said that there can be an exception for "if the unborn child will be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the parent", qualifying his approval or disapproval according to each individual abortion.[38]


From http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&source=we ... dw&cad=rja

Metta,

Annapurna :anjali:


Hiho Annapurna. The Dalai Lama was not quoted for his "approval", but because he gave a concise statement about Buddha's teaching on abortion.

Karma-vipaka is always, for any act, modified by the motive. So the mother & the abortionist's reluctance or eagerness to abort will, respectively, lessen or increase the bad effects of such killing karma.

Thank you Modus Ponens, I am aware of the Theravada majority view on abortion I was actually wondering which of the Buddhas teachings on abortion the Dalai Lama gave a precis of "concisely." As mentioned by Will.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Annapurna » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:30 pm

The Dalai lamas statement was taken from this interview:

http://www.tibet.ca/en/newsroom/wtn/arc ... m=12&p=5_1
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:35 pm

So I repeat my question. Are we to ascribe particular authority to the Dalai Lama ? I his opinion on abortion more authoritative than Ajahn Thanissaro 's for example ? Or the Popes ? Or Germain Greer's ? If so, why ?
Furthermore I read the Dalai lama own view of abortion..I did not notice any concise rendition of the Buddhas position. Unless we are to assume that like the Pope the Dalai Lama speaks ex cathedra.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:48 pm

Lest there be any misunderstanding I do think that we can deduce the main strands of the Buddhist view on the complex issue of abortion .
I am not however sure that the Dalai Lama view is particularly authoritative one way or another outside of one particular sect of Tibetan Buddhism on this or any other subject. If he had made a concise statement which summarised the Buddhas position that would be a different matter. But I think that there are a lot more reasoned and cogent Buddhist debates on the subject of abortion than those produced by the Dalai Lama.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Annapurna » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:17 pm

Just in case Sanghamitta is replying to me, I can't see her posts.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Sanghamitta » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:44 pm

Annapurna wrote:Just in case Sanghamitta is replying to me, I can't see her posts.


I wasn't actually, I was replying to Will, but presumably you cant see that one either... :rofl:
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby James the Giant » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:17 pm

Here's a story I read in Achariya Mun's biography:

An elderly female lay-meditator was meditating, and she had a vision of a thin thread from her citta winding its way through the village and into the womb of her niece.
She went to Achariya Mun, and asked what the significance was.
Achariya Mun said it was her citta preparing a rebirth in the niece's womb. The niece was one month pregnant.
Achariya Mun instructed the elderly lay-woman to sever the citta's thread next time she was meditating, thus preventing rebirth in the niece's womb.
The elderly lay-woman did this, and the niece promptly had a miscarriage.
Achariya Mun saw this as a positive thing "Otherwise she would have ended up in that woman's womb for sure" he said.

That's kind of an abortion. Not a voluntary one either! Yet a monk who is generally accepted as an Arahant condoned it.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:39 am

James the Giant wrote:Here's a story I read in Achariya Mun's biography:

An elderly female lay-meditator was meditating, and she had a vision of a thin thread from her citta winding its way through the village and into the womb of her niece.
She went to Achariya Mun, and asked what the significance was.
Achariya Mun said it was her citta preparing a rebirth in the niece's womb. The niece was one month pregnant.
Achariya Mun instructed the elderly lay-woman to sever the citta's thread next time she was meditating, thus preventing rebirth in the niece's womb.
The elderly lay-woman did this, and the niece promptly had a miscarriage.
Achariya Mun saw this as a positive thing "Otherwise she would have ended up in that woman's womb for sure" he said.

That's kind of an abortion. Not a voluntary one either! Yet a monk who is generally accepted as an Arahant condoned it.


This is where the kalama sutta becomes usefull.

:anjali:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby octathlon » Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:51 am

James the Giant wrote:Here's a story I read in Achariya Mun's biography:

For some reason that story gives me the creeps.
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Re: Buddhism and Abortion.

Postby Will » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:15 am

octathlon wrote:
James the Giant wrote:Here's a story I read in Achariya Mun's biography:

For some reason that story gives me the creeps.


Likewise. :!:

Seems quite an interference in the kamma of the old lady and the mother-to-be. Did this guru pick a "better" womb for her instead?
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