the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 04, 2014 4:12 pm

clw_uk wrote:In my view to deny the food just out of principle would seem to be attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso).


I think it's more likely to be compassion for animals, since meat-eating isn't specifically against the precepts or path factors. But I agree with your general approach, which seems to reflect the principle of the 3-fold rule.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:08 am

clw_uk wrote:
I agree that there's no point in judging others for meat-eating. It's their prerogative, their kamma. I'm just providing reasons for rethinking that habit. Food for thought, if you will.

To me, the focus is not one person being morally superior to another. Rather, the focus is kamma and compassion, as you've said. By avoiding the eating of flesh, I think one sows seeds of harmlessness for other beings in future lives and gains the fruits thereof.



I would say a Buddhist can eat meat in certain circumstances while not contributing to the killing of animals.

For example if I go to a BBQ the meat there is going to be provided regardless, so its either I eat it or it goes in the bin. I would say in that circumstance one can eat meat.

In my view to deny the food just out of principle would seem to be attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso).


The last (big) BBQ i went to, veggi burgers were provided. I've found that people usually provide both, because there are so many vegetarians in my area of the country . It isn't a case of me eating meat anyway, because I've been a vegetarian for a long time & I'd rather go without ,because I'd probably be sick if I ate it.. Unwanted food doesn't necessarily have to go in the bin either, it can often be given to animals or birds.

As far as the possibility of me refusing meat being "attachment to rites & rituals" , too bad!

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:17 pm

My experience is that there are always acceptable alternatives no matter what your dietary preferences.

A few days ago I prepared "shiskabob" for my guests. I chose to eat only the vegetables and the fruit from the skewers and left the rest for our dog. Our dog during our hike yesterday chose to eat the tall grasses along the trail. So, if dogs, omnivores, can eat veggies, so can the rest of us humans if we choose.

One aspect of our dietary choices which concerns me is the notion that being vegan does not provide enough protein. I have found that not to be true. All that we have to do is to combine legumes, nuts, and whole grains and we will get all the essential nucleic acids that we need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_(nutrient)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:20 pm

Dogs will generally eat grasses straight from the field, for a number of reasons; boredom, to ingest roughage, or more rarely, in order to self-medicate. A carnivore hunting, will always hunt herbivores as their main prey. Once the kill has been made, they consume as much of the animal as they can, including the stomach contents, which gives them the vegetative proteins and dietary roughage they need. Carnivores do not have an adequate digestive system to be able to process high-cellulose plant material. Their prey has already done that job for them, mostly. The vegetables we give animals at home are either cooked, or in adequately small quantities to make it an insignificant factor with regard to their being able to digest it. The vegetables we eat, and in turn, might give our pets, are very different in composition to the vegetative matter wild herbivores eat as their natural diet.

Our human digestive tract is actually very well designed and ideally suited for a vegetarian diet. It's long, slow and highly evolved to extract as much beneficial nutrients from a vegetarian diet as is possible. Food passing through the entire length of the digestive tract (mouth to cloaca) takes anything between 30 and 45 hours, depending on a person's activities and metabolism. A carnivore's digestive tract is much shorter, due to the reduced nutrients in meat, in comparison to a vegetarian diet. So carnivores need to eat a large amount of meat at one sitting, but then they need to give their less capable system, time to adequately process their food. This is why (a) they need some partially-digested roughage to assist the digestive process and (b) they only need to eat sporadically - say every 4 - 7 days. (Wild carnivores do not hunt every day.) Herbivores, on the other hand, need to continually graze, in order to consume and absorb adequate and sufficient nutrients. Their digestive system is thorough, but needs constant replenishment.
Many animals considered to be strict herbivores, are actually known to also occasionally consume meat.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:52 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote: I chose to eat only the vegetables and the fruit from the skewers and left the rest for our dog. Our dog during our hike yesterday chose to eat the tall grasses along the trail.


Good to heat that your dog likes a balanced diet. ;)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:43 pm

Our dog's balanced diet consists of anything and every thing. She is especially fond of cat vomit fresh and warm from our kitty's mouth. She always observes the three second rule, as well as the one - to two hour rule. :tongue:
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But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:11 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Our dog's balanced diet consists of anything and every thing. She is especially fond of cat vomit fresh and warm from our kitty's mouth. She always observes the three second rule, as well as the one - to two hour rule. :tongue:

Ugh...blergh...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:12 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Our dog's balanced diet consists of anything and every thing. She is especially fond of cat vomit fresh and warm from our kitty's mouth. She always observes the three second rule, as well as the one - to two hour rule. :tongue:


I guess that cuts down on the cost of dog food. :tongue:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:14 am

On a need-to-know basis, that scores a minus 20. Was there really any need to share such revolting information? That's just plain disgusting and really quite unnecessary.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:49 pm

NoBs. Apologies on behalf of my cats and dog, and for my sharing.

Have you ever studied the feeding practices of birds with their chicks, or other animals? It is quite common for parents to chew and digest their food and then feed it to their chicks. In the context of this thread, are the chicks to be held responsible for the manner in which they are fed, or dogs held accountable for their dietary reflexes? Does every mouthful of nutrition bring them karmic consequences?

On the part of the parent animal, I ask you, what is the difference between eating, masticating, digesting and vomiting for the benefit of their offspring and what food processors do with "tofu" for example when they process soy beans for the nutritional benefit of their vegan and vegetarian customers?

But, in any case no worries, Buddha highly recommends disgust as a means of preventing desire and attachment. So it is good that the idea of eating another animal's vomit disgusts you. :tongue:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:41 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:NoBs. Apologies on behalf of my cats and dog, and for my sharing.

They didn't share and have no need to apologise.

Have you ever studied the feeding practices of birds with their chicks, or other animals? It is quite common for parents to chew and digest their food and then feed it to their chicks.

There's a difference between vomiting something (generally rejected by the body because of included toxins, or material likely to cause illness) and food regurgitation or mastication for the benefit of feeding the young. In fact, that is why,according to Scientists, we kiss those we love, on the mouth.

In the context of this thread, are the chicks to be held responsible for the manner in which they are fed, or dogs held accountable for their dietary reflexes? Does every mouthful of nutrition bring them karmic consequences?

Why do you project the blame for your thoughtless actions onto animals who have no other means of behaving? They do what they do because they must. The only birds I've ever seen holding cutlery have either been humans in costume (Big Bird) or cartoon birds (Donald Duck). This is your Karmic consequence, not theirs...

On the part of the parent animal, I ask you, what is the difference between eating, masticating, digesting and vomiting for the benefit of their offspring and what food processors do with "tofu" for example when they process soy beans for the nutritional benefit of their vegan and vegetarian customers?

The actions are neither questionable, nor irregular. No animal 'vomits' for the benefit of another - a distinction I explained above.
As for food processors pulping food down for culinary purposes...? Are you serious? Jeesh....
My complaint was in your posting the information in the first place. Both disgusting and unnecessary.

But, in any case no worries, Buddha highly recommends disgust as a means of preventing desire and attachment. So it is good that the idea of eating another animal's vomit disgusts you. :tongue:

Well, that is extremely amusing. ¬
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:31 pm

:focus:

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:23 am

Some find eating vomit offensive to their sensibilities. Females in nature are not so sensitive. Take the cow for example. She chews her cud, digests it and then chews again, etc. It is the cows way of digesting and absorbing the nutrients to be gained from what most other animals would reject. This digestive system is also an excellent example of a symbiotic relationship between animals and bacteria, which cows carry in their gut, much like humans and other animals do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svw5KA8YlAA

Birds eat their food and feed their young often by eating, digesting and regurgitating the food into the mouths of their offspring. Flies apparently regurgitate on their food to allow their acids to turn the food into a liquid and then they simply sip it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regurgitation_(digestion)

Dogs eat many things as they are true omnivores. They also eat things that are truly disgusting for every other animal, but dogs:

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/dig ... 7AodAywAPw
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A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:41 am

I think I'll stick to my Morrocan puy lentils, punjabi chickpeas, black bean charros and polenta, and tofu in a black bean sauce.
Learn this from the waters:
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saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:45 am

Is viewing vomit as disgusting an example of seeing things as they really are.....or is attaining a certain degree of equanimity and then seeing that vomit is just stuff like everything else is just stuff like the food we eat and so is not disgusting an example of seeing things as they really are?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:33 am

How we see things is a function of many factors. To a cow, a cud is breakfast, lunch, or dinner. To a chick, mother's vomit is the same. To a human adult raised on eggs for breakfast, lunch meat between two slices of bread, and steak with potatoes, onions and mushrooms for dinner on Wednesdays, how they see what they eat is much the same. To a vegan adult, all the above may be disgusting. To dogs, bears, porcupine, and habitually starving people on the street or in The Bush all the above may be pure delight and to them a chance to live another day.

What do starving people eat?: "People who find themselves nearly habitually starving eat whatever they can find. To make a wide-based assumption, starving people often eat rice or grain based products. If they are lucky, they may receive UN food rations, or any sort of charitable food donation. If not, they scrounge up leftover food waste. As nourishment is necessary to survive, starving people will eat anything to simply survive the night. " ....source: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_starv ... _world_eat


When I was in High School back in the 1950s we were shown film footage of starving Russians under seige by German Assault forces eating from garbage cans, which they scraped with their hands. The human body, as all bodies needs nutrition in order to live and when survival is at stake will ignore preferences which previously molded perspectives in exchange for whatever will keep it alive.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:21 pm

Ben wrote:I think I'll stick to my Morrocan puy lentils, punjabi chickpeas, black bean charros and polenta, and tofu in a black bean sauce.


Mmm, delicious, - which reminds me, its time for a late (vegetarian) lunch !

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:50 am

According to an Ayurvedic practitioner and dietary specialist (I heard an interview with him on BBC Radio 4 - very distinguished and respected practitioner, Dr Jayaswal) it is completely feasible for the human body to flourish eating apples, soaked/rehydrated almonds and black/green olives and spring water, alone. These three food items apparently contain all the essential ingredients to maintain the health of the body. He did concede however, that such a diet would be tedious, boring and monotonous.
I'm going to try it for a week and see how it pans out....at least it should be cheap!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:57 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:I'm going to try it for a week and see how it pans out....at least it should be cheap!


Cheap is always helpful. :broke: :smile:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:10 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:According to an Ayurvedic practitioner and dietary specialist (I heard an interview with him on BBC Radio 4 - very distinguished and respected practitioner, Dr Jayaswal) it is completely feasible for the human body to flourish eating apples, soaked/rehydrated almonds and black/green olives and spring water, alone. These three food items apparently contain all the essential ingredients to maintain the health of the body. He did concede however, that such a diet would be tedious, boring and monotonous.
I'm going to try it for a week and see how it pans out....at least it should be cheap!

Really? I find almonds pretty expensive myself, from $7-$15/lb. depending upon what kind of almond and where they're from (roasted vs. raw, conventional vs. organic, unsprouted vs. sprouted, small producer vs. big producer). And I live in California where we grow most of the almonds the world eats.

I think of cheap as something like rice and beans which is ~$2/lb. for organic.
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