the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Aloka
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Re: Is vegetarianism even healthy?

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:39 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Tofu has received a massive amount of bad press, and has been cited as having harmful effects if eaten in high quantities. Fortunately it's been revealed as mostly hype, generated and funded largely by those industries to which the increased circulation of tofu would be harmful. (Several meat associations were found to be instrumental in generating adverse publicity.) However, advice does include avoiding GM Soya products. Buy organic. If a product has been GM, it will say so on the packaging, by law. (At least, it is law in the UK.)


I've been eating Tofu for years (but not every day) with no adverse effects - and never knowingly buy GM products.


:)

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Mkoll
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Re: Is vegetarianism even healthy?

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:01 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:If a product has been GM, it will say so on the packaging, by law. (At least, it is law in the UK.)

We tried to pass a law in California in 2012 to label GM food called Prop 37 but it didn't pass. :cry:
But apparently Vermont just had a labeling law passed this year, the first state to do so! :woohoo:
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Is vegetarianism even healthy?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:46 pm

Aloka wrote:I've been eating Tofu for years (but not every day) with no adverse effects - and never knowingly buy GM products. :)


me too. :thumbsup:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Is vegetarianism even healthy?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:51 pm

Mkoll wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:If a product has been GM, it will say so on the packaging, by law. (At least, it is law in the UK.)

We tried to pass a law in California in 2012 to label GM food called Prop 37 but it didn't pass. :cry:
But apparently Vermont just had a labeling law passed this year, the first state to do so! :woohoo:


For one of the most advanced and powerful countries on the planet (if not THE most!) America is a country which, to the outside observer, would appear to be greatly divided in its opinions, from State to State, and one which it's difficult to know how to "evaluate" given that legislation seems to change and differ so widely, cross-country.... Some counties allow this, while others roundly condemn it, other counties allow that, while in 'this' county, you can be put in jail... Why so much variation? (Or is this toooo off-topic?)
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Aloka
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Re: Is vegetarianism even healthy?

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:14 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:(Or is this toooo off-topic?)



Yes, its not about vegetarianism ! ;)


.

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Is vegetarianism even healthy?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:44 pm

I guess. It's one thing that puts me off visiting the USA. You never know WHERE you are with them! :jumping:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

Dr. Dukkha
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Re: Is vegetarianism even healthy?

Postby Dr. Dukkha » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:49 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Perhaps, Dr. Dukkha, you may like to review this thread.

Much appreciated! :thanks: :twothumbsup:
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting."

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Re: Is vegetarianism even healthy?

Postby Dr. Dukkha » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:52 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:I have a wonderful recipe for a warming winter lentil and chickpea soup. I lived on this for a time, when money was so tight it didn't bear thinking about....
Lentils and chickpeas are full of beneficial proteins and roughage. There is so much goodness in them, they should be available on the National Health!!

Dr. Dukkha, I am posting the recipe in the thread I linked.


Thank you! I was wanting to make some vegetarian chili tomorrow. Should be a good one if my cooking skills are up to par. :tongue:
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting."

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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:08 am

clw_uk wrote:
I agree that there's no point in judging others for meat-eating. It's their prerogative, their kamma. I'm just providing reasons for rethinking that habit. Food for thought, if you will.

To me, the focus is not one person being morally superior to another. Rather, the focus is kamma and compassion, as you've said. By avoiding the eating of flesh, I think one sows seeds of harmlessness for other beings in future lives and gains the fruits thereof.



I would say a Buddhist can eat meat in certain circumstances while not contributing to the killing of animals.

For example if I go to a BBQ the meat there is going to be provided regardless, so its either I eat it or it goes in the bin. I would say in that circumstance one can eat meat.

In my view to deny the food just out of principle would seem to be attachment to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāso).


The last (big) BBQ i went to, veggi burgers were provided. I've found that people usually provide both, because there are so many vegetarians in my area of the country . It isn't a case of me eating meat anyway, because I've been a vegetarian for a long time & I'd rather go without ,because I'd probably be sick if I ate it.. Unwanted food doesn't necessarily have to go in the bin either, it can often be given to animals or birds.

As far as the possibility of me refusing meat being "attachment to rites & rituals" , too bad!

:tongue:

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Aug 09, 2014 1:17 pm

My experience is that there are always acceptable alternatives no matter what your dietary preferences.

A few days ago I prepared "shiskabob" for my guests. I chose to eat only the vegetables and the fruit from the skewers and left the rest for our dog. Our dog during our hike yesterday chose to eat the tall grasses along the trail. So, if dogs, omnivores, can eat veggies, so can the rest of us humans if we choose.

One aspect of our dietary choices which concerns me is the notion that being vegan does not provide enough protein. I have found that not to be true. All that we have to do is to combine legumes, nuts, and whole grains and we will get all the essential nucleic acids that we need.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_(nutrient)
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:20 pm

Dogs will generally eat grasses straight from the field, for a number of reasons; boredom, to ingest roughage, or more rarely, in order to self-medicate. A carnivore hunting, will always hunt herbivores as their main prey. Once the kill has been made, they consume as much of the animal as they can, including the stomach contents, which gives them the vegetative proteins and dietary roughage they need. Carnivores do not have an adequate digestive system to be able to process high-cellulose plant material. Their prey has already done that job for them, mostly. The vegetables we give animals at home are either cooked, or in adequately small quantities to make it an insignificant factor with regard to their being able to digest it. The vegetables we eat, and in turn, might give our pets, are very different in composition to the vegetative matter wild herbivores eat as their natural diet.

Our human digestive tract is actually very well designed and ideally suited for a vegetarian diet. It's long, slow and highly evolved to extract as much beneficial nutrients from a vegetarian diet as is possible. Food passing through the entire length of the digestive tract (mouth to cloaca) takes anything between 30 and 45 hours, depending on a person's activities and metabolism. A carnivore's digestive tract is much shorter, due to the reduced nutrients in meat, in comparison to a vegetarian diet. So carnivores need to eat a large amount of meat at one sitting, but then they need to give their less capable system, time to adequately process their food. This is why (a) they need some partially-digested roughage to assist the digestive process and (b) they only need to eat sporadically - say every 4 - 7 days. (Wild carnivores do not hunt every day.) Herbivores, on the other hand, need to continually graze, in order to consume and absorb adequate and sufficient nutrients. Their digestive system is thorough, but needs constant replenishment.
Many animals considered to be strict herbivores, are actually known to also occasionally consume meat.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:52 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote: I chose to eat only the vegetables and the fruit from the skewers and left the rest for our dog. Our dog during our hike yesterday chose to eat the tall grasses along the trail.


Good to heat that your dog likes a balanced diet. ;)
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:43 pm

Our dog's balanced diet consists of anything and every thing. She is especially fond of cat vomit fresh and warm from our kitty's mouth. She always observes the three second rule, as well as the one - to two hour rule. :tongue:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:11 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Our dog's balanced diet consists of anything and every thing. She is especially fond of cat vomit fresh and warm from our kitty's mouth. She always observes the three second rule, as well as the one - to two hour rule. :tongue:

Ugh...blergh...
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:12 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Our dog's balanced diet consists of anything and every thing. She is especially fond of cat vomit fresh and warm from our kitty's mouth. She always observes the three second rule, as well as the one - to two hour rule. :tongue:


I guess that cuts down on the cost of dog food. :tongue:
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:14 am

On a need-to-know basis, that scores a minus 20. Was there really any need to share such revolting information? That's just plain disgusting and really quite unnecessary.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:49 pm

NoBs. Apologies on behalf of my cats and dog, and for my sharing.

Have you ever studied the feeding practices of birds with their chicks, or other animals? It is quite common for parents to chew and digest their food and then feed it to their chicks. In the context of this thread, are the chicks to be held responsible for the manner in which they are fed, or dogs held accountable for their dietary reflexes? Does every mouthful of nutrition bring them karmic consequences?

On the part of the parent animal, I ask you, what is the difference between eating, masticating, digesting and vomiting for the benefit of their offspring and what food processors do with "tofu" for example when they process soy beans for the nutritional benefit of their vegan and vegetarian customers?

But, in any case no worries, Buddha highly recommends disgust as a means of preventing desire and attachment. So it is good that the idea of eating another animal's vomit disgusts you. :tongue:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:41 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:NoBs. Apologies on behalf of my cats and dog, and for my sharing.

They didn't share and have no need to apologise.

Have you ever studied the feeding practices of birds with their chicks, or other animals? It is quite common for parents to chew and digest their food and then feed it to their chicks.

There's a difference between vomiting something (generally rejected by the body because of included toxins, or material likely to cause illness) and food regurgitation or mastication for the benefit of feeding the young. In fact, that is why,according to Scientists, we kiss those we love, on the mouth.

In the context of this thread, are the chicks to be held responsible for the manner in which they are fed, or dogs held accountable for their dietary reflexes? Does every mouthful of nutrition bring them karmic consequences?

Why do you project the blame for your thoughtless actions onto animals who have no other means of behaving? They do what they do because they must. The only birds I've ever seen holding cutlery have either been humans in costume (Big Bird) or cartoon birds (Donald Duck). This is your Karmic consequence, not theirs...

On the part of the parent animal, I ask you, what is the difference between eating, masticating, digesting and vomiting for the benefit of their offspring and what food processors do with "tofu" for example when they process soy beans for the nutritional benefit of their vegan and vegetarian customers?

The actions are neither questionable, nor irregular. No animal 'vomits' for the benefit of another - a distinction I explained above.
As for food processors pulping food down for culinary purposes...? Are you serious? Jeesh....
My complaint was in your posting the information in the first place. Both disgusting and unnecessary.

But, in any case no worries, Buddha highly recommends disgust as a means of preventing desire and attachment. So it is good that the idea of eating another animal's vomit disgusts you. :tongue:

Well, that is extremely amusing. ¬
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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mikenz66
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:31 pm

:focus:

:anjali:
Mike

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:23 am

Some find eating vomit offensive to their sensibilities. Females in nature are not so sensitive. Take the cow for example. She chews her cud, digests it and then chews again, etc. It is the cows way of digesting and absorbing the nutrients to be gained from what most other animals would reject. This digestive system is also an excellent example of a symbiotic relationship between animals and bacteria, which cows carry in their gut, much like humans and other animals do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svw5KA8YlAA

Birds eat their food and feed their young often by eating, digesting and regurgitating the food into the mouths of their offspring. Flies apparently regurgitate on their food to allow their acids to turn the food into a liquid and then they simply sip it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regurgitation_(digestion)

Dogs eat many things as they are true omnivores. They also eat things that are truly disgusting for every other animal, but dogs:

http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/dig ... 7AodAywAPw
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.


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