the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:41 am

I think I'll stick to my Morrocan puy lentils, punjabi chickpeas, black bean charros and polenta, and tofu in a black bean sauce.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:45 am

Is viewing vomit as disgusting an example of seeing things as they really are.....or is attaining a certain degree of equanimity and then seeing that vomit is just stuff like everything else is just stuff like the food we eat and so is not disgusting an example of seeing things as they really are?
chownah

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:33 am

How we see things is a function of many factors. To a cow, a cud is breakfast, lunch, or dinner. To a chick, mother's vomit is the same. To a human adult raised on eggs for breakfast, lunch meat between two slices of bread, and steak with potatoes, onions and mushrooms for dinner on Wednesdays, how they see what they eat is much the same. To a vegan adult, all the above may be disgusting. To dogs, bears, porcupine, and habitually starving people on the street or in The Bush all the above may be pure delight and to them a chance to live another day.

What do starving people eat?: "People who find themselves nearly habitually starving eat whatever they can find. To make a wide-based assumption, starving people often eat rice or grain based products. If they are lucky, they may receive UN food rations, or any sort of charitable food donation. If not, they scrounge up leftover food waste. As nourishment is necessary to survive, starving people will eat anything to simply survive the night. " ....source: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_starv ... _world_eat


When I was in High School back in the 1950s we were shown film footage of starving Russians under seige by German Assault forces eating from garbage cans, which they scraped with their hands. The human body, as all bodies needs nutrition in order to live and when survival is at stake will ignore preferences which previously molded perspectives in exchange for whatever will keep it alive.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:21 pm

Ben wrote:I think I'll stick to my Morrocan puy lentils, punjabi chickpeas, black bean charros and polenta, and tofu in a black bean sauce.


Mmm, delicious, - which reminds me, its time for a late (vegetarian) lunch !

:)

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:50 am

According to an Ayurvedic practitioner and dietary specialist (I heard an interview with him on BBC Radio 4 - very distinguished and respected practitioner, Dr Jayaswal) it is completely feasible for the human body to flourish eating apples, soaked/rehydrated almonds and black/green olives and spring water, alone. These three food items apparently contain all the essential ingredients to maintain the health of the body. He did concede however, that such a diet would be tedious, boring and monotonous.
I'm going to try it for a week and see how it pans out....at least it should be cheap!
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:57 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:I'm going to try it for a week and see how it pans out....at least it should be cheap!


Cheap is always helpful. :broke: :smile:
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:10 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:According to an Ayurvedic practitioner and dietary specialist (I heard an interview with him on BBC Radio 4 - very distinguished and respected practitioner, Dr Jayaswal) it is completely feasible for the human body to flourish eating apples, soaked/rehydrated almonds and black/green olives and spring water, alone. These three food items apparently contain all the essential ingredients to maintain the health of the body. He did concede however, that such a diet would be tedious, boring and monotonous.
I'm going to try it for a week and see how it pans out....at least it should be cheap!

Really? I find almonds pretty expensive myself, from $7-$15/lb. depending upon what kind of almond and where they're from (roasted vs. raw, conventional vs. organic, unsprouted vs. sprouted, small producer vs. big producer). And I live in California where we grow most of the almonds the world eats.

I think of cheap as something like rice and beans which is ~$2/lb. for organic.
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

Courage can only be cultivated in the face of fear.

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:50 am

I don't know why they're inexpensive here; but the recommended daily intake for the nutritive benefits to be adequate is around 30 a day. However, coupled with the other foods, this number can be reduced to around 20...
A 250g pack of almonds (£3.50) contains approximately 300 almonds (give or take!) so it's more than adequate for the week's intake.
The huge jar of olives is very good value 750g/£2.00 (from a cut-price economy international food supermarket) and apples are also very inexpensive.
So the week's intake, financially-speaking, will be a money-saving exercise!
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:12 am

How many calories do you plan to eat a day? Almonds are very calorie-dense but olives and apples aren't too filling. I'd imagine you'll have to eat quite a few!
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

Courage can only be cultivated in the face of fear.

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Anagarika
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Vegetarianism and Animals in Early Indian Buddhism

Postby Anagarika » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:51 am

In this presentation, University of Toronto graduate student Sean M. Smith discusses the relationship between humans and other animals in the psychological and cosmological teachings of early Buddhism.

"As a philosopher I am not interested in contingent historical details. I’m interested in truth, and I think Buddhist Philosophy, and especially Buddhist Philosophy in its early Indian guise – sometimes called the Theravadin school of Buddhism – is a deeply coherent and powerful philosophical model of the mind. And it is buoyed by and anchored by a very robust moral psychology, which I think when understood in the cosmological context of Buddhism … that this school of Buddhism can give us a very powerful lens for thinking about our relationship to animals…"

phpBB [video]



Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/americanbu ... z3APvrJDX7

Note from OP: I plucked this off of a Facebook posting from Justin Whitaker, and thanks to him for posting this originally. https://www.facebook.com/justinswhitaker?fref=nf

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Mkoll
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Re: Vegetarianism and Animals in Early Indian Buddhism

Postby Mkoll » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:36 am

If you don't mind, can you give us the TLDW version? What is his argument?
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

Courage can only be cultivated in the face of fear.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:21 pm

Due in no small part to inspiration from members of this thread, last night I prepared a meal of brown & wild rice, green peppers, onions, and cellery with peanuts balanced for essential nucleic acids. For a taste explosion and olfactory interest I added powdered garlic, sweet basil, curry, and what I determined by taste was "too much" canola oil and soy sauce. Frustrated with my error, I collected all the ingredients and decided to make an "egg beaters" omelette in the morning. From a purely karmic perspective, I still feel pretty good about the effort, since kamma is "intentional action" and shouldn't include culinary screw-ups.

My question is, aside from dilution being the solution to pollution, which I am going to do by combining the meal with eggs for breakfast this morning, what do others recommend for preventing ruination of an otherwise wonderful vegan meal? :tongue:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mkoll » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:41 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Due in no small part to inspiration from members of this thread, last night I prepared a meal of brown & wild rice, green peppers, onions, and cellery with peanuts balanced for essential nucleic acids. For a taste explosion and olfactory interest I added powdered garlic, sweet basil, curry, and what I determined by taste was "too much" canola oil and soy sauce. Frustrated with my error, I collected all the ingredients and decided to make an "egg beaters" omelette in the morning. From a purely karmic perspective, I still feel pretty good about the effort, since kamma is "intentional action" and shouldn't include culinary screw-ups.

My question is, aside from dilution being the solution to pollution, which I am going to do by combining the meal with eggs for breakfast this morning, what do others recommend for preventing ruination of an otherwise wonderful vegan meal? :tongue:

I think lightly salting the dish and letting the diners salt it to their own taste is a good idea.

Were you trying to make fried rice?
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

Courage can only be cultivated in the face of fear.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:09 am

mkoll: "Were you trying to make fried rice?"


Thanks for the suggestion. My culinary instructor, my now deceased wife, taught me not to salt any food in preparation, because it dehydrated the meal. Popcorn is the singular exception! :popcorn:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Mon Aug 18, 2014 5:05 am

Mkoll wrote:I think lightly salting the dish and letting the diners salt it to their own taste is a good idea.



Be careful about adding salt to food :

http://www.heartfoundation.org.au/healthy-eating/food-and-nutrition-facts/Pages/salt.aspx


.

kao1306
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The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetarians

Postby kao1306 » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:22 am

Based On Visuddhimagga, We Can See Very Clearly That The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetarians.
@VISUDDHIMAGGA 40. This too has three grades. Herein, for one who is strict, except at the time of eating sugarcane, it is not allowed [while eating] to throw rubbish away, and it is not allowed while eating to break up rice-lumps, fish, meat and cakes. [The rubbish should be thrown away and the rice-lumps, etc., broken up before starting to eat.] The medium one is allowed to break them up with one hand while eating; and he is called a 'hand ascetic'. The mild one is called a 'bowl ascetic'; anything that can be put into his bowl he is allowed, while eating, to break up, [that is, rice lumps, etc.,] with his hand or [such things as palm sugar, ginger, etc.,] with his teeth.
----VISUDDHIMAGGA-II. THE ASCETIC PRACTICES -vi. The bowl-food-eater
http://realtruthlife.blogspot.tw/2011/0 ... A2JstJK2MY

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Mkoll
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Re: The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetar

Postby Mkoll » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:24 am

Welcome to the forum!

I suggest this thread be merged with "the great vegetarian debate."
Buddhaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Dhammaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi
Saṅghaṃ saraṇaṃ gacchāmi


Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world; by non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is an eternal law.
-Dhp 5

sabbe sattā sukhi hontu :smile:

Courage can only be cultivated in the face of fear.

plwk
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Re: The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetar

Postby plwk » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:57 am

And the point is, kao?
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
Buddhanussati SC VSM VMM BS

chownah
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Re: The Traditional Theravada Buddhist Monks Are Not Vegetar

Postby chownah » Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:40 pm

kao1306,
What you have shown is about the rules.....you have said nothing about what any particular monk ate. Since many monks abide by the rules it seems likely that many ate meat and fish but this is not to say that all monks followed the rules nor does it show that in some places perhaps meat and fish were not offered to monks.
chownah

kao1306
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 1:25 am

the Buddha Is Not A Vegetarian

Postby kao1306 » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:29 am

Obviously, the Buddha Is Not A Vegetarian!
@StoryOfBuddha 69. To impress the other monks and nuns and disrupt the Sangha, Devadatta asked the Buddha to make stricter rules of conduct for the Sangha. He asked that monks not be allowed to sleep in houses or eat any meat. But the Buddha refused Devadatta's proposal. He said: "If some monks prefer to sleep in the open or not eat meat, they are free to do so. But if they do not wish to live this way they do not have to." Finally, the Buddha said: "Devadatta, if you try to break up the Sangha you will reap the evil fruits."
....... Story Of Buddha No.69
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/069bio.htm


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